Anxiety is not “Normal”
Episode 3: Anxiety is not “Normal” with Kate Borsato of @kateborsato
You've heard of Postpartum Depression but what about other perinatal mood disorders? Is it "normal" for moms to be anxious forever now that they've had a baby? What about intrusive thoughts? How long do these feelings last and what can we do about them?
Join Rachael and Therapist Kate Borsato to talk about perinatal mood disorders and finding moments of joy in early motherhood. In this episode we discuss:
what's normal worrying/ anxiety vs. what's NOT normal
how to know when you should seek help
what are intrusive thoughts?
how to manage stress
finding small "glimmers"
self care, self compassion and finding yourself again
Kate is a mom of two daughters and lives on Vancouver Island with her kids and husband. She works as mental health therapist, she created and leads a nation-wide therapy practice (Perinatal Collective) with a team of over 20 perinatal specialists, and also creates self-help resources for things like anxiety, overwhelm, and finding more joy in motherhood.
Follow Kate on Instagram
Virtual Therapy Collective (for Canadians)
Kate's Website & Recommended Online Courses
To get connected with help right away, visit Postpartum Support International
Listen to the full episode
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Rachael: Kate, thank you so much for joining me today. We've had these talks many times now, both on and off Instagram and I just feel so lucky to know you and have you as a friend and Instapal. And I know that you've helped so many moms from my community on Hey, Sleepy Baby. They thank me for sharing your page all the time, because I think you're just like this voice of, I don't know, you just do such a good job in your stories of showing moms that like, if you're in the thick of it with babies right now, it's not going to always be left that way. And you will find yourself again, you'll find your joy again, you'll do things for yourself again someday because you have kids that are a little bit older, how old are they now?
Kate: They’re seven and nine now, which is wild. Yeah, thanks, Rachel. I really appreciate that. I mean, I try to show up honestly. I'm always kind of aware of showing all sides of things, balancing not being scary or pessimistic, but also not being toxically positive and adding to that whole narrative. So I appreciate that reflection that it lands well with you and your people.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of people kind of find you through the avenue of wanting to learn more about their anxiety. Yeah, me, which is like, I think my audience definitely gravitates towards maybe the more anxious side, especially, obviously, when it comes to baby sleep. That's like a huge source of anxiety for so many parents. And for me as a first time mom, I didn't know about it at the time because I had only really heard of postpartum depression. But now that I'm five years out of it, I can look back and say that it was probably postpartum anxiety. And how that manifested for me was a lot of sleep stuff, like kind of obsessing about sleep and all of that. And I think a lot of the moms that find me on Instagram, you know, kind of feel that pressure and that anxiety, too, and so finding you is really helpful for them to kind of, I don't want to use the term normalized because it's not necessarily normal to have this postpartum anxiety to the level that it's affecting your life, but for them to just kind of feel seen by you and to know that their experience is valid. So the first thing I wanna kind of talk about and get out of the way, because we've talked about this so many times before, is how do we know when something is normal? How do we know when it teeters on not normal? And I think this is probably a huge discussion that we could have, and I don't want to spend too much time on it, but there is this trend on social media, especially where it's normalizing things like intrusive thoughts or normalizing things like ritualistic behaviors in motherhood or obsessing about your baby and checking on them every 20 seconds and things like that. I think a lot of people probably find comfort in seeing things like that, but then we maybe go too far in normalizing those types of behaviors, right?
Kate: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think there's ways of, you know, for anybody listening to succinctly understand, okay, what's normal, what's not, and what that line is. So whether we're talking about anxiety, depression, even relationship conflicts, stress in any other ways in life, I always, people always ask like, is this normal? At what point is it not normal? And a really simple way of thinking about this is once this thing, whether it's anxiety, depression, whatever, starts to significantly impact your life, and in a big way, so not just like, oh, I have pangs of worry and that's uncomfortable, but I still live my life normally. That's normal, right? If it's, I no longer live out my values and the things that I wanna do, and I don't get to be the person I wanna be because of this anxiety or because of the depression, that's not normal. And I say that in a way that is, it's not judgmental, it's more like you don't have to accept that that's just how you're supposed to feel. So I know online sometimes I'll post about things like postpartum anxiety isn't normal. And some people react to that. They don't like that. And I will always say as a therapist, like it's not normal to significantly suffer all the time. I will never accept that. I think yes, as humans, we're going to suffer sometimes. Yes, as mothers with babies, we're going to have some anxiety, but it's not normal or okay to be debilitated by these things where you don't get to live a full life. So that's always my kind of deciding point of is this impacting you? It's always the impact. So things are only a problem once they start causing a problem. Did that land?
Rachael: Okay, yes, for sure. And I think that's a helpful way to think about it because like you said, like we're moms, we of course love our kids, we're going to worry about them, that's all very natural. But like you said, like when it starts to kind of impact your daily functioning, or when it impacts you in a way where you don't want to ever leave your baby or you're not getting sleep because you wanna check on them all night or things like that, then it's definitely worth a closer look.
Kate: Totally, totally. And we'll talk about intrusive thoughts for sure at some point, but that's a really good one because yes, it's normal to have intrusive thoughts. Literally every human has had an intrusive thought. That's what our brains do. That's how we're wired to think of scary, weird things, but those don't impact people in the same way. So sometimes people will be like, oh gosh, I have intrusive thoughts. Does that mean I have anxiety? No, definitely not. That just means you're human with the human brain, right? But if that thought now is making you change your life and you're maneuvering around that thought, you're trying to avoid the thought, you're obsessing over the thought, that's a problem. That's more likely to be anxiety.
Rachael: So let's just dive right into that while you're already talking about it. So what is it about becoming a mother or a parent that makes intrusive thoughts maybe come online more than you noticed before? Or what would tip them into the area of not being, like you said, normal?
Kate: Yeah, like problem zone. Yeah, and like, why does it happen more to parents, right? So first of all, intrusive thoughts for anybody who isn't familiar with this, that these are images that could be thoughts, it could be like a movie scene as well, that just burst into your mind so you didn't ask for this, you didn't create it, you have nothing to do with it, it's just like, boom, you see this thing. And sometimes they're just kind of weird, right? Like, oh, what if I knocked over that really cool display of flowers at the grocery store, right? It could just be like an inappropriate thought. It could be imagining, you know, doing something sexual with somebody. It could be violent. It could be something violent happening to you. So it's like this whole extreme range of thoughts. Everybody has had these from time to time, okay? They're intrusive because they just like blast into your mind. And the most important thing to remember is that you didn't ask for this. You didn't cause it. And there's literally no difference between the thoughts that are really weird and disturbing versus the ones that are like, what if I crashed my car? Or what if I stole that person's food without asking? Like some seem really benign and some seem really kind of weird and disturbing and the process is exactly the same. So don't judge yourself if you're having weird, disturbing thoughts. Okay, so that's what they are. We've talked about how most people have them from time to time. We also know that they're more likely to happen, they're more intense and more frequent during times of stress or overwhelm.
Rachael: AKA parenting.
Kate: Okay, so when we think of like your life in general, yeah, like when have you felt stressed, when have you felt overwhelmed, tired, right? You're going to have them more naturally now. And then we also know when you think of women or folks who are carrying, biologically growing, carrying, birthing babies, you are hardwired to be really protective and hypervigilant for your little babies, right? We have to remember that we are animals. Our nervous systems are our animal nervous systems. Our brains are like mama bear brains. And you're now growing a baby. So during pregnancy, you can expect intrusive thoughts to get worse because you're already in this hyper-protective, hypervigilant state in your brain. So it's physiological. And then you have your new baby and they are the most vulnerable things in the world. They are 100% relying on us to keep them safe. And of course, that is very much wound up into how we've developed and why humans still exist because we are so good at keeping them safe and freaking out over every possible tiny little thing. So fast forward now into this modern world, our brains are still ancient and they still think that there's danger all over the place. So naturally in the perinatal period, our brains will offer, constantly, sources of threat. It's like don't forget about this, look at that, what about this? So, you know, nighttime rolls around and you worry, is my baby still sleeping? Like, did they eat enough? Are they okay? Are they happy? Is that person a threat? Is this person a threat? Is my husband a threat? Like, we're just constantly thinking about every possible source of threat. So, like, just physiologically, it's really normal for this to get way more intense during the perinatal period. But most people will say, like, it ebbs and flows. You know, once you learn about intrusive thoughts, most people are like, oh yeah, when I was 12, I used to think about this thing all the time. Like, iIt just happens. It just becomes really intense during the perinatal period.
Rachael: Okay, and so, well first I want to hear if you had interest in thoughts as a mom when you were postpartum.
Kate: Oh my God. Yeah, I so relate to when you said like you talked about your experience in hindsight. And really like now you're a sleep expert, if we can use that term or supporter, helper. And it's like, that's yeah, we're so informed by our experiences. So I already was a therapist already had a master's in counseling, like should have known I'm quoting, you know, judging myself right now, I should have known better. And I, in hindsight, absolutely had perinatal anxiety. I went to my doctor when I was pregnant. I didn't even have a baby yet, but still, I didn't really know that was even a thing. I thought, I fully thought I had some sort of lung condition. I couldn't breathe very well. I was just short of breath all the time.
Rachael: Because you were pregnant.
Kate: Yeah, well that, but even before, honestly, it probably started my fertility journey because it wasn't happening fast enough and I was just stressed. So the anxiety just skyrocketed and my doctor looked at me and she's like, you don't have lung cancer. Like it was just off the dial. She's like, it's anxiety. And I refused to accept it. I was like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. And then years later it just shifted. And for me, like the intrusive thoughts is really what pretty much blew up.
Rachael: So then once your baby came, your first baby, let's just say, did the intrusive thoughts continue? Did they get worse? What happened then?
Kate: Yeah, they got so much worse. So my kids are 16 months apart. I feel like my postpartum, like I can't hardly even differentiate them because they just overlapped. And for me, the intrusive thoughts, I think like the peak of it, I have this really clear vision in my mind of my husband traveled all the time for work. So I was often just scared to be at home alone. I always used to be as a younger person, as a kid, a teenager, even a young adult.
Rachael: Me too, yeah.
Kate: Yeah, and I thought that would go way out. I remember thinking like, I can't wait till I'm a mom and I feel safe and like strong. And then I became a mom and I'm like, fuck, I'm still so scared and stressed. Yeah, I'm like so scared. So my husband was always gone for work and as soon as it got dark, I would just have constant intrusive thoughts of intruders, like people breaking into my home, literally like boogeyman type intrusive thoughts that logically in my adult brain, I'm like, this is ridiculous. There's nobody outside of my window staring at me right now. But my other part of my brain was just horrified, thinking for sure there's somebody there. For me, it was like even having a shower and closing the shower curtain felt too scary for me. And I always feel a lot when I'm sharing this because it feels a little bit embarrassing. But I know that every time I do, people are like, oh my gosh, I don't want to close a shower curtain either. Or washing my face, I didn't want close my eyes because I thought as soon as I open my eyes, there's going be somebody standing there. So this happened, it just kind of got worse and worse really slowly. So I didn't realize how off track I was getting. I was very much bought into it. So, in this circumstance, this became a problem for me. So not just because I had these thoughts, I think many women have thoughts of intruders, sadly, we, you know, you have a lifetime of feeling vulnerable. But for me, so the impact was that it started changing the way I was behaving. So at about 6 p.m. it got dark, I wouldn't go into my living room or my kitchen anymore. So I had to have my whole house basically shut down ready for bed by like 6 p.m., which is super dysfunctional, right? So I would pretty much like put the kids to bed or we would hang out and read and then I would just stay in my room for the whole night. So this is where we start getting into talking about OCD, which is an anxiety branch, where you know, you have these scary thoughts or uncomfortable thoughts and then you start maneuvering either things around in your life, or maybe you go through thought processes that are kind of ritualized, that helps you feel a little bit more comfortable, but clearly doesn't actually solve the problem. So for me, I came up with this great solution of just not going into the kitchen, but functionally doesn't work. So now, years later, I can look back and think, okay, that's exactly what was going on, but I had no idea. So I just want anybody sitting with that now, like it's okay that you don't know. How would you know? I had a degree in all of this and wasn't even aware of it. So do not judge yourself for not catching this stuff right away.
Rachael: Yeah, and I feel like this is just like an example of something that you don't really know about or that nobody really tells us about becoming a new parent is that, like, I think, you know, a lot of people hear about postpartum depression and they're, you know, maybe expecting that they could feel some baby blues or something like that. But a lot of people don't realize all the different, as you said, branches that these perinatal mood disorders can go in.
Kate: Yeah, and I think it's tricky to know again, like, what's normal? You know, what a lot of moms will say, is this my intuition? Like, what if somebody really is going to break into the house? Or maybe your worries are about your child's, like, SIDS or your baby not breathing in the night. You know, I know many moms will get up very frequently and check for breathing. And what I say to clients is like, it's okay, do it once or twice. Like, of course, that's pretty natural. But at what point is it no longer giving you new information and it's just kind of like a self-soothing thing. But yeah, it's endless in the different ways that this can show up. I would just say for anybody listening, if there's anything that you're just like, hmm, I wonder if that might be part of this, just reach out to a therapist. At the end we can talk about ways to get support and who to connect with. But I imagine some people listening will be like, hmm, I wonder if this is what's going on for me.
Rachael: Yeah. And I think it's just so nice to have someone like you name that and just name while it might not be normal, it might not be functional, it does happen. It doesn't mean that you've done anything wrong or that there's anything wrong with you or that it'll always feel this way. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that since you're a little bit further ahead of me in the motherhood trajectory and it's just so fun to see you kind of like rediscovering yourself on social media and finding new hobbies that you enjoy. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you take all of the stuff that I'm going to start that again. I would love to hear more about how you find yourself again after you're through those newborn days, in the thick of the babyhood stage and how you reconcile… I know a lot of us feel like quote unquote, mom guilt, which I actually really hate that term. But how do you kind of navigate that like, finding your own hobbies again, and connecting with friends again, and all of that stuff that can feel so hard when your kids are really small.
Kate: So hard. Oh my gosh, so hard. Well, now, I mean, of course, like hindsight is a beautiful thing and just having some perspective is helpful and we can't expect ourselves to have that until we're on the other side of it. I know, of course, there's things now in 10 years, I'll be like, oh, I didn't realize that was gonna be fine, right? Like, you don't know. So now, you know, I am nine years in, my oldest just turned nine. And when I look back and same with, you know, witnessing the clients that I support in therapy and friends and family, I really see there's this like, it's like stages of motherhood, right? We talk about like matressence, but then I think we kind of stop talking about it after you’re a few years postpartum, but I'm seeing that there's, okay, there's more that's progressing here. And so from my experience of what I see, this first phase really is survival. And yes, of course you're enjoying moments and it's very sweet and Rachael, I see you online just like really aware of your third and those moments that aren't going to be there forever. And it's perspective that allowed you to have that, right? With our first, you don't have that. You're just like, is this my life now? Is it over?
Rachael: Yeah, you think it's going to last forever. You cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel at all.
Kate: Yeah. No. And how could you? Like I remember thinking, oh my God, this is literally my life. And then four months later, I was like, okay, fine. I'm okay. Yeah, it's okay. And even now I'm like, this is stressful, but it's like, this isn't my life either. It's just right now. So the first few years were, were that it was survival. It was like finding glimmers, finding moments that felt good, but also just surrendering, a whole lot of surrendering. And as an individual, it really did feel like parking myself for a while. And I think some of that is inevitable. I think people choose to accept that in different degrees. And then of course there's other factors like the support that we have. Some people would love to be more independent, but it's literally not possible because we don't have enough support. So, but there is this stage of really not, life is really not just about us. And that's okay. And then I find that the space has started to open up a bit. So, I mean, around that five year old mark, I know that might sound so scary and daunting for some people, it did for me when people were like, oh yeah, when they're five, it gets better. I was like, what? But now, now I'm like, oh, I hate to say it, but five, it does really start to shift. If you have kids going into school system, you're feeling that, right? Like you're kind of just getting into that.
Rachael: Yes, oh my gosh. My oldest is going to start kindergarten, and my middle is only three and even they function now kind of as a little unit. They easily play together. They go to school together. They have similar sleep schedules. They are very much like a little team. And so when they are off doing their thing or at school or whatever, and it's just me and the baby, it feels very manageable. And I can't even imagine if I had not had the third, I would feel right now like, oh, I can start to have a little bit of a life again.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. And so it really does start shifting. And so as your little kids start becoming more independent, and it's all bittersweet, because that can feel sad too, but then it also opens up. It's both, it's always both. So they go off and they start becoming more independent, and then your space opens up a little bit. And I'm always, you know, encouraging clients, and this is kind of what I'm shifting more into in my content online and my interest is like, how do we bring it back to you now? It's not that it's just about you, but how do you start to give yourself a little bit more of that, of that pie, right? Like, and then what does that look like? Because it's going to be really different than it did before. And that's okay. But I think one mistake that we can make is forgetting, like forgetting to come back and, and not being willing to figure out what that might look like now. And so it's like, maybe, maybe a few years in the space starts to expand. You can come back to yourself. It just keeps growing. And I think, and we also grow, so I'm not 27 anymore, I'm 37. So what I'm interested in now is gonna look a bit different. And it's fun, and we can let it be fun. And all of this really does overlay with anxiety and the things that I've been talking about, because when we are stressed and when we're anxious, we literally don't have the ability to feel joy, pleasure, ease, that actually gets cut off, and it's all happening in our nervous system. We're not choosing this, but when you're stressed, your brain doesn't care about being happy. Like your brain is literally like all we need to do is stay alive and keep your kids alive. Joy doesn't keep you alive, pleasure doesn't keep you alive, sadly, I wish. And that's why it's so hard to be happy sometimes. We have to work at it. Our nervous system doesn't care if we're happy. And so this is why I see this all happening in tandem. So as we start to manage anxiety and soothe our nervous systems and like learn what we need, learn to actually do this self care that everyone keeps talking about, as we start doing that, ahh, like we start to settle and then it allows us to actually have the space to feel joy and pleasure and ease and fun and all of those good things that we're all missing in the early days. That make sense?
Rachael: Totally. Yeah, it makes total sense. And that was kind of going to be what I asked next was if you are still in the baby years, the toddler years, like you're still really in the thick of it, maybe you're having baby after baby and you feel like it's just this never ending stage. And maybe you are also dealing with some anxiety or something like that in your motherhood journey. How do you find those little bits of joy, like what do you need to do to be able to shift your brain to be able to experience joy even if it's not extremely feasible for it to happen all the time? Like it might be easier when your kids are older.
Kate: Yeah, and I certainly want to highlight that we don't park ourselves and accept that for five years, because that feels just not sustainable. I want people to know that this becomes easier, like the space will expand, but to not give up on it when you're in the thick of it. I really like this idea, and you might have heard about it lately, online people are talking about glimmers. And this is coming from literature around the nervous system and polyvagal theory, which is a whole other topic that’s super interesting. And it's really similar to gratitude or noticing sweet moments because that is what joy is. Nobody has a day that's like 12 hours of straight joy. And nobody gets that, right? We get a moment. We get like a delicious sip of coffee. We get a sweet hug. And then it's usually followed by a scream or a demand or a chore or like something hard or a bill or, you know, and that's just life. And so what we need to do in the early days is like consciously search for the glimmers, search for the moments that you can note as being great. And there's different ways you could do this. So you could try, I mean, mindfulness, we need to be mindful, we need to be paying attention the moment to catch them. It might be when you're holding your baby and finally they get a good latch and you're like, oh, like just that relief of it working. Like maybe that's your glimmer today. Or maybe it's like your partner brought you a hot cup of tea. It's like, that was really nice. So one of these things in and of themselves isn't going to be enough, but it's making sure that we notice the good things. Our brains don't naturally notice them. Our brain will always notice the bad things, because again, we need to avoid that to stay alive. It's all survival. So we have to really force and learn the skill of noticing the good things. So one way to start to teach your brain to do that is like jotting down five things at the end of the day that went well, right? They don't have to be profound, but it could be like, oh, it was sunny today, thank God. Or like, oh, I had this nice exchange with the woman at the grocery store. Like it could be simple things, but if you write it down, it starts to teach your brain the skill of noticing.
Rachael: I love that.
Kate: So those are like, you know, a couple of little concrete takeaways, but you have to make it explicit. Otherwise you just, the joy, we bypass it, and all we notice is the tough stuff, okay?
Rachael: Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about nervous system regulation because I think that's something that a lot of moms struggle with, whether they have actual clinical anxiety or not. I think when we have young kids and it's constant like sensory overload and you know, like constant information coming in, whether it's being touched constantly, being screamed at constantly, the baby just has never ending needs, we never get a break. How can we start to maybe have a little bit of a practice where, like you just said, you gave us a great tip for noticing glimmers. What can we do to help ourselves physically bring our nervous system back down and stay a little bit more regulated in those tougher moments or tougher days?
Kate: Yeah, that is such a good question. And honestly, if I say this often, I hear myself repeating this, if there was one thing I wish I learned 10 years ago, well, that, but if there was one area that I wish I kind of dug into 10 years ago as a mother, but also a therapist is like learning about how to regulate your nervous system. This is so important. So for anybody who's overwhelmed with all the parenting things, all of this, all the mental health tools that we're supposed to know, it's like, I honestly think you could forget a lot of it and just learn how to regulate your nervous system because then that actually allows you to use all the things that you already know. We don't need more information. We just, you can only access all the skills when you're calm. That's why people like they lose their shit or they yell at their kids and then they're like, I know this stuff. Why did I do that? It's like, of course you know it. You know it up here, but your body is stressed. And then we just react. And so regulation is huge. So just to kind of back it up and give some information about like, what does this even mean? So when we think about our nervous system, our nervous systems are essentially like the surveillance system that's always going and its whole purpose is to keep us safe. So it's looking for things that are threatening and then it's also looking for things that feel safe. Everything is so basic in our brains and nervous system. It's like you're good, you're bad, you're safe, you're not safe. It's never in the middle. And so when we become stressed, our nervous systems have picked up enough information to think that we're not safe, and so it flips us into a threat state. That's your dysregulated state. You'd hear people talk about dysregulation or overwhelm, anxiety lives up there. It's all kind of the same. We just have different ways of talking about it. So you're dysregulated. You are no longer in your calm state and it's one or the other. You're either dysregulated or you're regulated. And so most of us when we're parenting, especially in the early days, there's so many things like noise, demands, clutter and mess, criticism, like self-judgment, criticism from other people, feeling not good enough. So like you scroll online and you see all these amazing, quote, amazing examples of what everyone's doing so much better than you, and then you feel bad about yourself, that shows up as a threat to your nervous system. So all these things make us overwhelmed. And before we can be the person we wanna be and use our parenting skills and use all the things that we learn, we have to calm down. And I know that calm down is such a triggering statement, but really like we need to calm down, as Taylor Swift tells us. Yeah, so how do we do this? Yeah, go.
Rachael: Yeah, I know you need to calm down. I actually just saw a piece. I don't know if you saw it. I should have sent it to you. I think it was like New York Times. They just put out this piece about how saying calm down is the worst two words you could ever say to your child. And I'm like, I can think of a lot more bad things to say to someone. But calm down is tough because it just feels so big. Once we're in that state, we don't even really know where to start to calm down.
Kate: Yes. Okay. And this is why, I mean, I think it's loaded. It's kind of getting loaded, just like do some self care. Like it's annoying, but it's also true. Same with calm down. It's like, it's annoying and it's true. And think of like the different ways we see that to our kids, like you need to settle your body down. It's like the same thing. So it's like, let's just some different language. Okay. But the first interesting thing is that language and like speaking, it doesn't calm us down. So we know this about our children and many people have probably learned this, you know, when they're having a tantrum or big emotions, we don't go up to them and give them words. We don't say like, you need to stop doing that. Like you usually go in and more of like a body level and comfort them. You either touch, you hold space, maybe you just stay near them. You control your own tone so that they feel that, right? It's not words. And so it's the same thing with us as adults. We can't say, I just need to calm down or don't be anxious about that, that's not actually a problem. Like when we try to tell ourselves, like our worries aren't that big of a deal, you know, when you go in from the word level, it does not work because our bodies are what stress, our bodies don't care about words. So we have to show our bodies that we're safe. Okay, so this is a big takeaway. How do you regulate your nervous system? You show your body that you're safe. So how do you show your body that you're safe? There's lots of different ways to do this. And like we're going to touch on like a tiny little bit today but if anybody wants to know more, just Google like ways to regulate your nervous system. So going in at a body level, breath is the fastest and easiest way. So there's different types of breath techniques, but again, “take a deep breath” can also be really triggering so just notice that anybody listening, if you're like, okay, Kate, if another person tells me to breathe, I'm going to lose it. But when we take a deep breath into our belly, it stimulates the vagus nerve is a whole other topic, but it stimulates a really important nerve that tells your brain we're good, we're safe. A deep breath that's not in your chest, but it goes into your belly. So let's say your kid is screaming and you're overwhelmed and you're about to kind of lose it. You just pause, take a deep breath and feel your belly bulge out, like really down low. Another quick tip is exhaling longer than you inhale. So it doesn't have to be a certain timing, but like, let's say you breathe in for three, you breathe out for five. It's a certain type of breath pattern and it helps regulate. So breath work is an example. Moving your body. So some people who feel overwhelmed, like they're going to rage or just freak out. I've been there. Many people are there. No judgment. But you've got a lot of energy that has to go somewhere, right? And so big movement type things are going to help regulate your nervous system. So even going for a walk, jumping and shaking your arms, swaying can be really helpful. Notice all these things are super simple. These are the same things that we can teach our kids to soothe themselves. Touch. Right? Like, gosh, there's so many different examples. I don't want to keep going, or I could maybe even share a post that we can link in the show notes at some point. But I think like the bottom line is, is it's body based things. So senses, soothing your senses, think about how you would all soothe your children. Because I'm imagining there's a lot of parents listening who you know exactly how to soothe your child. And that's exactly the same thing you need. So you need gentle language. You need soothing touch. You need maybe a walk, maybe get into nature, some fresh air, water, an ice pack, like things that help us feel good. You already know these things. We don't need to reinvent the wheel for ourselves just because we're adults, okay?
Rachael: And I think too, like, if we look at how our kids express their stress, right? So they're having a huge tantrum, what are they doing? They're moving, like you said, they're probably hitting, kicking, running away. They're engaging in some type of breath work because they're maybe like hyperventilating, crying, they're letting out their emotions. So those things aren't as acceptable to us as adults to display. But a lot of times we can get kind of like a clue to how to get that anger out and that frustration and sadness out and that's what our kids do.
Kate: Totally. And the most important thing that we need to do as parents is give yourself a minute. Take a break. I often have clients say, well, I just feel bad leaving the room or whatever. It's like, no, that's actually modeling to your child. Oh, and you can narrate, right? Oh, wow, mommy's feeling like, I'm so frustrated right now, and you own it. You're not blaming your kid. You're just saying, wow, I'm feeling overwhelmed. Oh, oopsies, mommy just yelled, and I don't want to do that. I think I need a break. You own it. You narrate what's happening, and then you model to your children, how do you calm yourself down? I'm just actually gonna go get a drink. Mommy's gonna go put my earplugs in because I just need to turn the volume down or whatever. And you just say it and they look at you like, oh, number one, humans get overwhelmed. So I'm not a bad kid when I get overwhelmed. Beautiful lesson. And then you're showing them what you can actually do about it. You don't just have to force yourself to sit through those emotions because we all know it doesn't actually work. We explode at some point, right? So it's okay to take a moment. And in those early survival days, you need a lot of moments. You need to like really take many, many moments in the day to breathe, to slow down. And I know the objection that comes up a lot is like, people are like, well, I never have time away from my kids. You don't need to be away from your kids, right? You can put some music on, you can make a cup of tea, you can go outside, you can put on some, I don't know, light a candle, put on your incense so you smell something. Like there's so many things that you could do to give yourself this soothing, small little moment of comfort.
Rachael: Yeah, for sure. Well, that's all so helpful. I love getting these tangible tips to give people. And like you said, there's so much more that can be found online. And in particular, your page is wonderful and your courses are wonderful. If people are struggling with anxiety, OCD, intrusive thoughts, depression, if they feel like they're teetering in the area where it's maybe no longer normal, it's affecting their functioning, affecting their daily life, their enjoyment of their life, what is the first step that you would recommend for them?
Kate: Yeah, I mean, it's so tricky because I think there's like the ideal support that everybody would have. Like I wish everybody could go to a trained perinatal therapist and like, have like 20 sessions and you know, receive that kind of love. Like, and, and yeah, so I wish that everybody could do that. If that feels within your means, then if you're in Canada, I run a team across the country and we're all specializing in perinatal mental health. In the US, you can look at, or outside the US as well, you can look at Postpartum Support International, which I know Rachael, you speak about often, and we'll take them in the show notes here, but they have a directory of perinatal mental health specialists. So I would say definitely find somebody, if you're gonna find a therapist who has specialized training, that's really important, because the training is very different than what you mostly get in most grad programs. And sometimes generalists will sound alarm bells sometimes that don't need to be sounded. And so it's really important that you feel like this person truly understands what the perinatal experience is. So that's a great thing. But also, I really do believe in self-help. I believe in like self-education. A lot of this stuff is not, it's not actually that difficult. It's just about getting the right skills and then practicing the skills. So I mean, I have a course on anxiety. I have a very brief and to the point workshop on intrusive thoughts that is like literally what I teach clients. It works. It's intrusive thoughts and OCD is like the most responsive mental health challenge to therapy and treatment. Like it is so responsive. You just have to learn the right things and practice them and you'll be okay. Like it's profound. It's so cool. So don't anybody listening, like do not just suffer through this alone. Like you can absolutely feel better. So self-help resources for sure. Like look at free Instagram accounts, ask them what they would recommend. Do the affordable, low-cost workshops and courses. And then honestly, really lean into how do you support your overall self, your physical self, calm your nervous system, figuring out what works for me. We're all different. Like I know for me if I don't exercise for like four days my mental health tanks.
Rachael: It's like my husband. I wish I had that to motivate me, but I don't.
Kate: Oh, well, unfortunately, it's not often not enough to motivate me. I just suffer. Not but I know it like I know if things feel really rough, I just need to like get back on the train. And within a few days, I'll feel better. Not everyone's like that. Right. Some people are like, I need my friends. I need my friend time. So like, be a bit of a detective with yourself. What do you need? It's going to look different for everyone. What's helped you in the past? And then be willing to look for the low hanging fruit. Like, don't accept the objection of like, I don't have time because I'm too busy. Like I know you are all busy and it feels like it's impossible, but don't give up on yourself because it like no, unfortunately no one's going to swoop in and then do it for you. At some point we have to be the ones that say like, okay, enough is enough. I need a minute. I need 10 minutes. I need a night off. Like how can that look for you in your life? And don't give up on yourself.
Rachael: Yeah, because it'll just fester. I am so much that. I am so that person where I'm like, I don't have time. I have too much work to do. I don't have childcare. The baby won't take a bottle. I am just the queen of excuses when it comes to not taking time for myself. And I should dig deeper with my therapist about why I feel like I don't deserve a break or can't take a break because I can. I do have a support system, and a lot of people don't. So yeah, don't keep telling yourselves those stories about how you can't or don't deserve it or have the time for it.
Kate: Yeah. And a big story is that I need to be away from my children in order to take care of myself. And that is just, we have to reject that. Of course it's easier. Like, oh my gosh, of course it's way easier if you don't have to be around them all the time. Or if you get a break, if you want to look at it. But like, that just traps you to feel like you've got no options for years. So actually, I did a post, a community roundup post about realistic self-care ideas from parents that you can do with your kids around. And it's such easy stuff, but things like you share, where you have your little skincare caddy beside your bed, that's not going to save your mental health, but it probably feels pretty nice.
Rachael: Yeah, it feels great. It's better than not doing it.
Kate: Totally. And sure, I would rather go to a really lovely cafe with my girlfriend and sip like, I don't know, right? But like, what's the next best thing that is realistic in your life and go for that? Yeah.
Rachael: Well, and what are the things that you can realistically incorporate more than, I mean, I can't go meet my girlfriends every single day, but I could put a podcast or a audio book in my ears and take a long walk with my baby and that's great for both of us. And those are the types of routines that you really can incorporate. Yeah, I had a post on that a few years ago, I think, now, maybe, because I think Noe was a baby. But I did a similar one where I was like, it was the pandemic, right? Like I couldn't go anywhere. I couldn't see my friends, couldn't do anything. My husband was an essential worker so I had like no support from anybody. And so I kind of did have to get creative and I did a similar thing where I kind of crowdsourced some ideas. And my favorite thing at the time was taking a bath with my baby. Like she would lose her mind if her dad tried to take her at night. So I was literally glued to her 24/7. And so I was like, I really want to take a bath so we're taking a bath together. Yeah, and it was actually really nice and sweet and not something I would do all the time, but it kind of just did give me that idea of like, I don't actually have to leave her to take a little bit of care of myself.
Kate: Yes, you refused to accept that this is impossible or had to look a certain way. I know for me, you know, now it feels like how could that have made a difference? But I remember at the time it really did. When my kids were little, I was putting on music for them all day long. Like I was listening to like Kid Bop, I don't know, like those playlists. And I kind of like that stuff sometimes. Like I'm okay with it. But it was a low season where I just felt like crap. And I was coloring like Paw Patrol coloring books with them. Like I love to do art with my kids. And I was like, why am I surrounding myself with shit I don't get any joy from? What, and it just kind of occurred to me, I'm gonna start playing my music. I ordered myself a really beautiful adult coloring book and beautiful felt pens and I put them in a container and I said, mummy's felt pens do not touch. And I kept them nice, cause they were at the age where they were just like smashing things and everything just was ruined. And I'm like, this is actually an opportunity for a bit of joy. I'm sitting at the table for an hour anyway coloring, why wouldn't I color something beautiful? It's so subtle and so small, but like the intention behind it is, I matter too, I don't need to sacrifice everything. And that's where we actually have some choice that we forget to see.
Rachael: Yes, I love that. And they probably loved sitting with you and coloring your own things too and getting introduced to new music. And yeah, my kids are very into my husband and I are going to Taylor Swift in a month by the time this podcast comes out will have already gone. So but yeah, so we've been listening to the playlist because he needs to learn some of the songs and my kids are are loving it. They're like requesting Karma like every time we get in the car now. And so now I'm kind of getting sick of it. But it is like that reminder of we don't need to listen to Frozen and Moana songs all the time. Yeah.
Kate: No, exactly, exactly. So, I mean, all of this threads together, right? Like even the different stages of life, I honestly feel like the joy, those moments start expanding. And I get so excited talking about this and hearing these little glimpses that moms take for themselves and start to just add a little bit more joy, but it really does just start as a sprinkling. So if you're in a season where it feels impossible, like that's okay. Number one, it won't always feel like that. And then I say, let it be easy. How can you make this easy? How can you just sprinkle teeny, teeny little things in that feel nice? And then just grow from there, expand from there.
Rachael: I love that. Well, Kate, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find the courses and other resources that you mentioned?
Kate: Thanks for having me. It's always like just so lovely to chat with you. I would say the best place would be Instagram and then everything kind of branch from there. So Kate Borsato on Instagram. I'm kind of like cyclical on there, sometimes I'm all in it and sometimes you won't see me for a month, but I'm giving myself permission to show up that way.
Rachael: I love that. It's actually like, it's a great thing to model is that we don't need to be on all the time when it's not feeling good. So you're an inspiration to me in that way. And I will link all of this stuff you mentioned too. I'll link everything in the show notes as well. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon!
