About Sibling Stuff
Episode 2: About Sibling Stuff with Jess VanderWier of @nurturedfirst
Join Rachael & Jess as we talk all about adding on to your family. We discuss siblings and different dynamics and challenges that can come up when welcoming a new baby.
In this episode, Rachael and Jess discuss:
Adding a second and third baby to the family and our personal experiences with this
Getting through Postpartum with other children
Preparing your older child for the birth of a sibling
How to connect with your older child when a new baby is born
New feelings/ dynamics that may come up and how to handle them
How to deal with things like aggression from your older child
Sleep issues that may come up after welcoming new baby
& more!
Jess VanderWier is a Registered Psychotherapist who helps families understand and respond to their children with gentleness and respect. Jess has a Master's Degree in Counselling Psychology and has logged thousands of clinical hours supporting parents and their children. As the founder of Nurtured First, Jess uses her expertise to support parents in her online parent community through her online courses and free resources.
Follow Jess on Instagram
Recommended Course: Parenting Little Kids
Listen to the full Episode:
-
Rachael: Welcome to this episode. We have Jess VanderWier here and Jess is a registered psychotherapist who helps families understand and respond to their children with gentleness and respect. Jess has a Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology and has logged thousands of clinical hours supporting parents and their children. And she's also the founder of Nurtured First, which is one of my very favorite Instagram accounts for as long back as I can remember, back when you were Our Mama Village, too, I just loved following you for parenting content. You use your expertise to support parents in your online parent community and your online courses and free resources. Nurtured First offers daily parenting guidance to over a million families on Instagram, such a huge deal. And you're committed to working with parents and caregivers to create a generation of children, parents and caregivers who are nurtured first. And so you just recently went through like a rebrand and you hit a million followers. I feel like it's been such a huge year for you. You also had a baby recently. So you're juggling a lot. I really appreciate you joining us and taking the time to chat.
Jess: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. It's an honor to be here on your podcast. I'm so excited for you to be starting a podcast and the feeling’s mutual like I absolutely love your page. Everything that you talked about infant sleep has totally changed the way that I see my own infant and has helped me so much this last year. So thank you for having me on.
Rachael: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad it could be helpful for you. Yeah, I feel like in both of our spaces, both sleep and parenting, there are so many different accounts and perspectives, and it's hard to kind of filter it all out. But yours is one that I always feel is very realistic and just nurtures, like in your name, nurtures the parent and the child all at once. So I really love that. And today we're gonna be talking about a topic that is very near and dear to both of our hearts, especially in this last year, which is siblings. And we both recently welcomed our third baby. And there's a lot that can kind of come with that expansion of a family, right? So I would love to hear just first about how, cause you've shared a little bit about this on Instagram, but just for anybody who's not very familiar with your page, I love how honest you are about the realities of adding a new baby so I would love for you to just kind of chat about how each of those transitions has gone in your family.
Jess: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm so curious to hear your experience, too. I'll start with the first baby. So when I added my first baby, that was just a huge life change for me. I went from being a working professional, being in school. I was a therapist and I worked with families and I worked with kids so I thought, okay, you're for sure gonna be ready for this life change. You literally work with families and kids every single day. But even though I had done the work, I hadn't lived it out as a parent and it was very surprising to me and my anxiety that I had really experienced my whole life, but not really dealt with, really peaked in that first postpartum experience. So that was a really challenging experience. And I struggled a lot, especially around anxiety around baby sleep, like that was probably my biggest anxiety that I struggled with and I know that you and I can relate on that. And that was so surprising for me. I really had not learned or had known anything about baby sleep coming into parenting, I was kind of like, oh yeah, I'm sure you just put them down and they sleep. Like that's basically as much as I knew. So then when my oldest daughter, she wouldn't sleep and she really struggled with the newborn stage like she wasn't a sleepy newborn. She was up every 45 minutes, always screaming. But I was terrified to hold her to sleep. I started basically at that time, that was like six and a half years ago, so I started really scrolling Pinterest like that's where I was learning about baby sleep. And everything was like, well, drowsy, but awake, drowsy, but awake. So that was my experience adding my first baby until it really started crumbling down and my family was like, we're worried about you, you're never sleeping, you're really struggling. And so I went and I actually got my own therapy, started to see, oh my goodness, like I've been giving these given what I'm reading online, like these really toxic messages about baby sleep. And it's making me feel so anxious and feel like I'm the problem because my daughter doesn't sleep more than a four hour stretch when really like that was, that was pretty good.
Rachael: That was pretty good!
Jess: Yeah. And so that was my experience with my first baby. And then by the time she was one, I was feeling so much more, more confident and better as a mom, but I still definitely was not ready for more kids. And actually, this is something I haven't talked about too much, but for a long time I thought for sure I was only having one because my experience was so hard and I thought to myself, like, there's no way that I could ever enter back in. So between my oldest daughter and my second daughter, there's a three year age gap. And around the time when I got pregnant with my second, finally I was starting to feel like, okay, maybe, like, I think I could feel ready. My pregnancy with my second was actually so much better, I felt really good. That was definitely my best pregnancy by far. And I was feeling really ready for parenthood. I had like all these supports lined up and ready to go. And then of course, if you follow my page, or even if you don't, she was born in March 2020.
Rachael: Perfect!
Jess: So I had told myself this story of like things are going to be so much easier this time. Like you're going to have support. You know your anxiety. Like you know what you need. But still, yeah, then of course he was born the week that the entire world shut down. But there was something really precious about that time for us because we had no expectation to be anywhere, no expectation to go anywhere and like those first weeks were so like such a beautiful time actually with my family because we didn't have to do anything but just lay with the baby and feed the baby and that was really the time when I started to realize like, oh, I can do this. I can do this and it was a really special time. And then we can talk about adding the sibling maybe a little bit later, we can get into some of the things that I did there. But that was definitely a big transition for my oldest because then she went from full mom and dad all the time, all the attention to splitting that plus not being able to go to daycare and not being able to see her friends. That was really tricky.
Rachael: Right, yeah, I'm sure any parent listening who had a pandemic baby can relate to all these mixed feelings about it, right? Like it was so nice in so many ways to have that little bubble, but then the lack of support and lack of community can make it really tough, too.
Jess: Yeah, it was that balance of like, yes, it's so nice to just, no one is holding my baby, I can just hold her all day long. And then also, okay, but no one gets to meet my baby and I'm alone and I don't have any help. So, and I'm sure you can relate to that too.
Rachael: Oh, for sure. Yeah, because our middles are only a couple months apart. So yeah, Noe, my middle was about six weeks at that time.
Jess: I think that's when we found each other online. I feel like I started following you around then.
Rachael: Yeah, because that's when I started my account too. I started my account in March of 2020. Yeah, so it was like that same season that just feels like it was 20 years ago now, but it was, yeah, a crazy time. So would you say then that was your easiest transition, when your second daughter was born?
Jess: Mm hmm.
Rachael: Okay. And then how did it go with the third?
Jess: Yeah, I, yeah, the third I would say was the hardest. And I feel like I haven't like shared too, too much about it. I've said on my page that it's been difficult. I think it was the hardest, not because of the baby. Like she actually was a really easy addition to the family. I was curious if you felt the same way. Like I felt so ready, her sleep, like nothing about that bothered me, I was totally fine waking up with her in the night, but it was this balance of like adding the baby, plus having the two older kids who really needed me and my middle was only two so she had a lot more big feelings. She was very sensitive. So it was a lot harder for her to adjust than my oldest. Plus trying to run a business, which I know that you can understand. You don't get a mat leave, like you're still going, you're still trying to run your business and trying to take care of everything there. The mix of all of that was incredibly hard on me, my husband Scott, we work together, so on him trying to pick up all of the slack and that I think really made that transition difficult.
Rachael: Yeah, I can so relate to that because we had our baby about eight months ago. So yeah, I feel like our kids are pretty similar in ages, but I always say like adding Leni, my baby was the easiest transition as far as the baby. Like she's our chillest baby by far. Like she's not our best sleeper, but that stuff doesn't bother me anymore. Kind of like what you said. It has been a hard transition, but not because of the baby, because of everything else. The bigger kids juggling their schedules, they're older now, they're back and forth from school and activities. And, you know, obviously my business has picked up a lot since the last time I was on a maternity leave, quote unquote. So yeah, it definitely has been more intense just as far as the juggling of all the things. But the baby itself, she's like the great part. She's the easy part. It's been funny to see the different age gaps too, because my oldest has been, and he's my highly sensitive kid, but he has been completely unphased by the addition of the baby. Like he absolutely adores her. He didn't really show any big feelings about this new person in our family. Like he has really just embraced her. Whereas my middle had a little bit of a split personality kind of thing happen where she's so in love with the baby, absolutely loves being a big sister, loves the baby so, so much, but also has been struggling a little bit more. So I would love to dive into talking about maybe how to prepare your older children when you're still either thinking about adding to your family or you're pregnant or maybe you've just had a newborn and you're seeing these things. What would you say are the best strategies for preparing a toddler or a really young child for a new baby?
Jess: Yeah, that's such a great question. I think a few things that we did do well and that I teach to families first is just trying to role play what it's like with the toddler to have a new baby. So even though my toddler, she was not even quite two yet when we had the baby, we were able to get dolls and kind of role play and be like, this is what's in mommy's belly and we'd have the baby out and we'd practice using soft hands, we practiced putting the baby in the bassinet and taking a step back and being like, when the baby's laying in the bassinet, we can't touch her, what's that going to be like? So I think that that's one really small thing that we can do with those really little kids who you're not going to have those really lengthy conversations with. With your oldest, you probably can actually sit down with him and have a real conversation and be like, look, we're going to have a new baby. Here's what it's going to be like, and here's how you might feel. Those conversations with our older kids are amazing and can be super helpful. But those little toddlers, I think that's the trickiest age because it's hard for them to really understand the impact of what's going on.
Rachael: Right, and they do learn so well through play. So role playing is a really great tip. We did a lot of that too, like with baby dolls and things like that. What kind of conversation would you recommend having with a child who is a little bit older and maybe does understand what's coming? How do you even begin to talk about that? It's such an abstract concept when you're still pregnant, I guess it's kind of hard for them to really envision it still.
Jess: Absolutely. Yeah. A couple of things I think are really important. I love to do books with my oldest child. And I think we have a list of books somewhere that I can send to you, you can put in your show notes. But I have a list of books that I really love to read with kids to help them understand what it's like when a new baby comes. So the book might be about the baby's and mommy's belly, or the book might even be about when the new baby comes, this is what it's going to look like, this is what it's going to feel like. And I think, again, like you were saying with the role play, you're speaking a child's language, which is play. Stories is a way that kids really learn. And so that's for little toddlers all the way up to older kids. They can learn super well through stories. I would also just tell my daughter, like my daughter just loves to hear, like, Mom, tell me a story, tell me something that's going on. So I would just tell her a story like, oh, I remember when I was your age, when I was five, then my mom had my little baby brother, Sam. This is a true story. And I remember when she had Sam, like I was so excited, but also it was really tricky sometimes because I missed my mom and she was really busy. And so I would tell her the stories of these things that I thought might happen to help her already start connecting some of those dots ahead of time.
Rachael: Yeah, and you're kind of normalizing that experience for her, right? Where we can have a couple of different feelings at once. And yeah, I love that.
Jess: Yeah, like really for our older kids, helping them understand these mixed feelings, like you might be excited about the baby and you might be jealous and you might miss mommy and the baby might be really cute and so we're trying to show them that all these things can exist at the same time. Another thing that I've shared on my page that I found really helpful was trying to prepare her ahead of time for missing me and having like a couple little strategies that she could use in case she felt disconnected from me. And so basically how that went is I told her that whole story of like, you know, when mommy has the baby, I'm going to have you busy. I'm going to be taking care of you and be taking care of the baby. And I'm going to be taking care of your other sister. And like, that's a lot of people to take care of. And I always want to be with you and like support you and be there for you. But sometimes like, I just might have a lot going on and I might not notice that you need me. So we had a couple of little things that there were like secret little signals between her and I, where she could touch my elbow and I said, if you touch my elbow, I'll put my hand back on your elbow and then you'll know that mommy sees you and I'll come to you as soon as I can. Or like I told her, you're allowed to walk right up to mommy and say, I miss you, I need time with you. And I said, if you say that, I will respect that and I will spend time with you. And she actually did it a few times where she would actually with her little assertive stance like come up and be like, mom, I miss you. I need time with you. I'd be like, you're right. Okay, let's do that.
Rachael: I love that. I wonder if that just would cut down on some of the, because I think a lot of times people will see these like behaviors that are really connection seeking behaviors, but they look like negative behaviors because we just don't know always what's going on inside their little mind. So I wonder if giving them a script like that or something that they can do or say would cut down on some of those because they can just get their message across without having to engage in those types of things.
Jess: Totally. I think it helped her. Like my oldest, it helped her so much because she just knew well, instead of having that like hit or get really angry or grumpy, I mean, she still did get grumpy or frustrated sometimes too because she's five or six. And I mean, I was too. So understand. But she had the language to just come to me and tell me what she needed and she would. And then I would do my very best to honor that. And if I couldn't be like, hey, right now I can't help you because I'm feeding the baby or I'm helping your sister. But at this time then we will spend that time together and really trying to respect that I think cut down on a lot of challenges between her and I.
Rachael: I love that. And did you do any like, I know a lot of people say you should be kind of proactive and try to set aside time every day for, I found that really hard. I did really try to set aside like special time or one-on-one connection time with my kids, but I did find it hard, especially in the first few weeks to make sure that I was doing it every single day with each kid. Did you do any of that? Or do you think that that's realistic?
Jess: I think that can feel really overwhelming to be like, I have to spend special time with each of my kids. And it seems so simple. How can I not spend 10 minutes?
Rachael: Right, it sounds like it should be easy, right, I know. But when you have a newborn, it can be tricky.
Jess: Yeah, when you have a newborn and even I found into like the six, seven month age where my daughter still like, and now all of a sudden took longer to get her down for a nap. And like, I'm in and out of her room because I'm not quite sure what her schedule is. And I felt like that age, like the age Leni's at, like I felt like that was really tricky for me. So one thing I call it something a little different, call it tiny moments. And my thing is like, even if it's just like a wink at them, like, hey, wait, a little wink, I'm not a good winker, but like a little wink at them to say like, hey, I see you're playing really nice. Or just like a little pat on the back or like just thinking like, oh, I know they love the snack. Like I'm going to put it out on the table before I go upstairs. And so I'm not thinking I have to spend this 10, 15 minutes of like connected time together because it's just not always realistic, especially when you're a mom of two, three, four. But I like to think of it as a tiny moment, like just very short, even seconds long moment of connection can make a really big difference.
Rachael: I love that, just something that lets them know that you see them and you're thinking about them and that you're still there for them too. That's a really good piece of advice. Cause I think, yeah, a lot of the messaging around there feels like it should be doable and then when you actually have that newborn baby and you're juggling all these little people, it feels like, oh my God, I can't even spend 10 minutes with my kid. What is wrong with me? Like I should be able to do this. And it's going be detrimental if I don't. So tiny moments, it's a really, really great idea. What do you then do if, cause we were talking a little bit about behaviors that you might see. And I know a lot of parents have this happen and I would be curious to see what it was like with yours, but I think sometimes there's like this honeymoon period when you first bring a new baby home and it's just so sweet and maybe they're sleepy all the time. So it seems like a really easy baby and your older child is just like really excited and the baby's not really bothersome to them yet. And then things can shift and you might notice some changes in behavior. I have parents write to me all the time like, oh my gosh, my toddler was sleeping through the night and now they're up all night again and I can't do this because I have a newborn now too, like when is this gonna stop? Did you experience that in your own life? And then what do you notice the most as far as what's happening with toddlers and little kids after that initial kind of honeymoon period?
Jess: I felt that, to be fully honest, I did not have a honeymoon period with my toddler. Like, I think she was at my parents' house, they were watching her, and I definitely did with my first. Like I said, that transition was a little easier, but with my second, my toddler came home and immediately had this, like, deep, aggressive love for the baby. And so we did a lot of prep work, and like a lot of it did definitely pay off. Like she was able to like she knew about the soft hands and she knew about stepping back to the bassinet. But I think what I was still trying to learn and understand about my toddler at the time was her sensitivity and how deeply she felt things. And I don't think like she was just starting to kind of come into that personality at age two. And so when we added a new baby, it just completely turned her world upside down. It was really challenging for her so she definitely stopped sleeping well, like you talked about. And it was funny because I work with toddlers who don't sleep well, as we both do, and I've worked with so many families who are like, I added a new baby and the toddler stopped sleeping well. And that's exactly what happened to me, too.
Rachael: Yeah, we're not immune to this stuff, unfortunately.
Jess: And the thing is, even though I know some of the things that could really help her sleep when you're in survival mode, you're not thinking about these things that you know. You're just like, I just need to get through the day. So yeah, she stopped sleeping well, she was up many times in the night. And then, because I think a big part of it was she wasn't sleeping well, now during the day, she's overstimulated and overwhelmed. So I think that part of it was really tricky for me. And yeah, so, I don't know, do you want me to talk about some of the things that we did to help?
Rachael: Yeah, I would love to hear what you guys did.
Jess: So one of the big things that we did, the first thing was really trying to get her sleep back on track because we weren't holding those boundaries. We were exhausted. And I think for a lot of parents, you're just so tired that you're not holding boundaries and then not holding the boundaries leads to you being more tired and exhausted and frustrated. And it just becomes this really vicious cycle.
Rachael: Yeah, it's a cycle.
Jess: So that's what was happening to us. We weren't holding boundaries because we just didn't want to deal with the meltdowns, but then it was just becoming harder for us. So we started to hold some boundaries around sleep. And we actually, at that time, had moved her to the same room as her older sister, which worked really nicely. She started kind of following her older sister's lead and realizing like it is time for bed. We shifted her bedtime, like she was going to bed closer to like 9:30 because she was still having a nap. So I kind of went back to what I know about sleep and was like, whoa, hold on, she's having way too long of an afternoon nap and now she's up till 9.30, 10 o'clock at night. So we started shifting that time back and we really had to put our own tools that we know into practice and routine. Like it sounds so simple and I'm sure you say this all the time too, right? You're like routine, okay, that's basic, but actually it's so helpful for kids to have a routine that they can rely on.
Rachael: Absolutely.
Jess: Especially these more sensitive children who like if we're doing something different, they don't know what to expect. So every night she wasn't knowing what to expect. Like is she going to get parents who are overwhelmed and tired and like fine just watch Dora the Explorer until 9:30 or is she going to get parents who are like no you need to go to bed at seven. So we had to get clear on our negotiables and non-negotiables and our boundaries that we were willing to set and that was a really nice shift and helped her start sleeping a lot better in the night. And then we started sleeping better in the night, which I think helped us be able to navigate the daytime a lot better as well.
Rachael: For sure. I would love for you to talk a little bit more about sensitivity and temperament and what these types of kids, because I know we each have one of these, what types of things do you think are most important to keep in mind when navigating sibling stuff, adding a new baby? What's different about a child who is a little more highly sensitive? So for example, the first thing comes to my mind about a highly sensitive child when we think about adding a baby is it's going to be a lot more overstimulating. There's going to be crying. There's going to be changes in schedule, like all of those things that can be tough. What are some of the other things that you see the most, either in your own family or with people that you work with?
Jess: One of the big things I see and I've seen for years in the people that I worked with is change. So change, transition can be really challenging for highly sensitive kids. And so when we're having a new baby, we're basically changing everything. So we're not only just changing like their daily routine, but also, we are changing because we are more tired and we're feeding a baby and we're taking care of another human. And so basically everything in their world is really disrupted. So I think that that's something that a child who might not have that temperament, which is being highly sensitive, like my older daughter who is much more mild tempered. So from birth, from toddlerhood, she's never had big meltdowns. She's just always been mild tempered. So for her, change, it's a disruption, it's a big deal, but she can navigate it given the right tools and the right connection time. My other daughter, change feels so overwhelming. She feels things so deeply. And the other thing about sensitive kids is they take on our emotions. So when I'm overwhelmed and I'm overstimulated and I'm trying to feed a baby and also I'm sensitive, so I'm also feeling overstimulated and I'm also taking on her emotions so it's like everybody's taking on each other's emotions. This is going to feel so deep for her. And so some of the messages that she needs is like I see your emotion. She needs me to not take on her feelings and not join into her chaos. She needs to rely on me to be her calm, which can be really hard when you have a new baby. She needs some things to be consistent. That's why a bedtime routine, as simple as that was, having the same exact thing that she did every single night helped her rest. It helped her feel like now I'm safe to sleep because this is something I can rely on. So it's those little things with the sensitive kids that maybe a more mild tempered child like my oldest doesn't need to have the exact same routine every night. We can just say it's bedtime. She's like, okay, like she's so easy in that way.
Rachael: Amazing.
Jess: I know! And so seeing that the differences is really quite huge.
Rachael: I love that. And so you mentioned that you started having them room share. And so how was that helpful for your middle or your more highly sensitive? So did she, was she like afraid at night? Did it help with things like that? Or was it more just like a logistical thing to have them sleep together in the same room?
Jess: Yeah, it was two. I don't know if you can relate to this, but when we had our third baby we had literally no nursery set up at all.
Rachael: Yeah, same. We were moving at the time, so it was just a complete disaster.
Jess: Oh, yeah. So we were kind of like in our heads. So my two year old, she was just turned to at the time. She was still in a crib. So we're like, okay, well, we'll just let the baby co sleep with us until it's time to move her into the crib. And then we'll move her into the other room where there's already bunk beds with her sister. So it kind of was just a logistical thing, we didn't have another nursery for the baby. And it was time that I was kind of ready to move her into her own room. So then we needed to move her in with her sister. And it went so, like, obviously there was some challenges, but I think the part that really helped her was to know that her sister was also going to sleep. She wasn't alone in the room. She appears as though she's not afraid because she's very bold and loud and confident. But she really underneath all of that, which is a lot of our sensitive kids does have these fears and does worry about being alone and I mean, all kids, separation is super daunting for them. And the idea of being alone for 10 to 12 hours is just too much. So the idea that they could be together in the room, I think gave her just a lot of ability to rest that she maybe didn't have when she was alone in her crib. So for her, it worked out really nicely. And I know that's not the case for all sensitive kids.
Rachael: Right. No, we just recently in the last couple months moved our kids into the same room and they've shared like on and off when we've been traveling or staying with people or something like that and they love it. But I did get a lot of questions about it when I was sharing on my Instagram, especially because they're boy/girl. So I would love to hear what you think about siblings sharing rooms. When is it appropriate? When is it not appropriate? Like what types of things do you need to look for to keep kids safe?
Jess: Absolutely. I get this question asked all the time, too. I think sibling room sharing can be a really beautiful thing. I think it can be a really amazing gift to give to your children to have that time together, to share a room, to get to bond in that way. And I also think that I've been asked that question too, like, oh, I would never want my kids to share a room. Like, I think they need their own space. But I think that that's a really big privilege that we can say that because I think a lot of people all over the world don't have the ability to put their kids in separate rooms.
Rachael: Absolutely not.
Jess: And that seems to be a newer idea that our kids need their own rooms and their own spaces. So that's just one thought I have. That's kind of a separate thought. I think what you're saying to keep it safe, we wanna make sure that there's ground rules. And especially with siblings, we do wanna be mindful of bullying because I would say that siblings can bully each other. And a lot of the adult clients I've worked with have struggled with that from their siblings.
Rachael: So as far as keeping siblings safe when it comes to bullying, when it comes to preventing any sexual abuse between siblings, what are the main things that you would want to look for as a parent when you're thinking about putting your kids together?
Jess: I'd want to look for what their relationship is like outside of the room sharing. So if you're already having issues where there is one child that's constantly picking on the other child, you feel like one of your kids often is hitting them or calling them rude names or I mean outside of like the normal kind of sibling bickering like they're fighting over a toy, but you're seeing this more intensive kind of behavior towards each other. I would be really hesitant to put them in their own room. What we really want to go with as our parents is like, do we trust that if these two are alone in a room together and I'm not there supervising them, is it going to be safe? And I will say that for some parents that I've supported or worked with, it doesn't seem safe. Like maybe one of their children is not at the spot where they can safely be alone with their sibling without trying to hurt them or say things that would be deeply impactful to them. So I do think that parents, like in yourself, you want to feel confident that you can leave your children alone and it's okay if the answer to that is, no, I don't think that they're gonna be a safe fit for each other. I think in terms of the boy/girl sharing a room, it's similar where you do want to check in with yourself as a parent, is your child, so the older child or the younger one, are they craving privacy? Are they at an age where they're like, I don't want to change in front of my sibling? And if so, that's okay. We can still figure out ways to have some privacy within a room sharing situation because like I said, people all over the world have to share a room like we can't just say, well then put them in their own room because many houses just don't allow for that. So we can have rules about, you know what, when he's changing, he's going to be alone in the room. We're going to give him that private space and that time. And then when he's done, then we can switch out. We can have rules maybe we can change in the bathroom. Like I know my older daughter, age six, she's at the point where she does like some privacy when she's changing and I always want to respect that for her, too, I don't want to say, oh, you can't have that because you share a room. So there's little things like that we can be really mindful of when we're sharing rooms.
Rachael: Yeah, I love that. We, and this wasn't even on purpose, it was kind of just a space issue, but we kept all of Noe's clothes in her old room, which is going to be Leni's room, and so they kind of changed separately just because of that, because we don't have space for two dressers full of clothes in the one room. And we have other play spaces in our home too, like our family room is kind of where all the toys are so really they're just sleeping in their room. They go in there for bedtime and they come out in the morning. They're very rarely in there playing together at the same time or changing or anything like that. So that kind of makes it feel nice too, that they are able to take some space from each other when they want to, they're not just constantly on top of each other in the same bedroom. But it has been really nice. Like, I mean, Otto has always been a little bit more fine to sleep on his own. Like we haven't had a ton of issues with his sleep, but Noe definitely seems to be benefiting from having him in the room with her. It's really nice. And logistically for us as parents, it makes it easier because we do still lay with them most nights, not always, but they usually want us to lay with them while they fall asleep. And when they're in the same room, it only requires one parent, whereas before we would have to each take one. So that's been really nice too, just because the baby is a little more unpredictable now that she's getting older and developing and her schedule is constantly changing, like I need to kind of be available to her while my husband takes the older two, they function kind of like a little unit now, which is nice.
Jess: We have the same thing. My husband usually takes care of the older two and that's the other really nice thing about room sharing, and I take care of the baby whose now 13 months, but she'll always be a baby to me.
Rachael: Yep, she's the baby still. You can still call her the newborn.
Jess: She'll always be the baby, I know, I still call her the newborn on my stories all the time and people are like you need to stop saying that!
Rachael: I know, I love it. It's hard, it's so hard. It's so hard when it's your… I don't know if you guys are done, but for us it's our last one. And it's just it's really hard to come to terms with not being in a baby stage anymore.
Jess: Oh, I feel that. Yes.
Rachael: So as far as sibling relationships, what would you say are some of the more important things to keep in mind when, because I have two sisters and I'm so close with them. I absolutely love them. And we had a great childhood together. Of course, we fought. But I maybe should ask my mom, what did you do to make us make sure we ended up being close and really liked each other and didn't feel competitive with each other? What do you think about, iIs it up to the parent or is it just luck of the draw if your kids get along? Like how do we set our kids up to really enjoy each other and be friends one day?
Jess: Oh, I love this question, I love so much. I was just with a group of mom friends a few weekends ago and we talked about this for like hours because I think as parents, one of our big goals often is we want our kids to love their siblings and to love each other. But I also think we don't want to push friendship on them. We don't want to force them. You have to be best friends because I think that's a lot of pressure as well. So I think there's a balance. I think we can do a lot as parents. I think a few things that are really simple that we can do is trying to avoid labeling every child. Like, this is my easy one. This is my, she's the, oh, she's the hard one, you know, she's always into trouble. Or even more so, like as they get older, we see, oh, she's the athletic one, she's the popular one, she's the smart one. And I think that when we label our kids in that way, and there's a difference between me saying, you know, my middle daughter is sensitive because that's just something that's true about her that I need to understand in order to parent her in the way that's best going to serve her.
Rachael: And us talking about it doesn't mean that we're saying it in front of everybody at a family gathering or something, in front of them where they can hear us.
Jess: Yeah, or in front of our kids, right? So when I say that, parents sometimes push back and be like, well, like, this child is sensitive. And that's true. And we do want to understand their temperament. So we want to be mindful of like how we talk about that in front of them, because I can easily breed competition. It can breed like, okay, well, now my parent says that I'm this one so now that's kind of the life that I have to live for myself and the child follows that story. So I think avoiding the labeling can be one thing. Another thing that I'm super intentional about with my kids is when they hit each other or they are frustrated with each other, I try and avoid calling, like making one of them always the troublemaker, like, oh, again, seriously? And really speak love over the kids. And so something that I'll always be like, oh, you really love your sister and you hit her. I'm just I'm curious. Like, I know you love her so much and you guys usually get along and you hit her. So that just doesn't really make sense. Like what's going on? And I like to approach a sibling conflict starting with, I know you really love each other. And so this just doesn't really make sense what's happening. That curiosity piece and speaking that love over each other versus like, that's so mean. Why would you hit your sister? Has really helped in our home, helped them also recognize the love that they do have for each other, even in those tricky moments where they're not always feeling it.
Rachael: I love that. And you can kind of narrate for them too, what you notice, like my kids, oh my gosh, they hit each other constantly. And like now that Noe is a little bit older, she is definitely finding her voice and fighting back. And so one thing like you just said, that's been helpful for us is to kind of just narrate what's happened, like, oh my gosh, Noe, like you just hit Otto really hard, what was happening and kind of trying to speak from Otto's perspective, like, Otto, he came over and wanted to join you. And then you didn't like that or like whatever it was. And that kind of, I think helps them kind of make sense of, oh, he didn't hit me because he's bad, or he didn't hit me because I'm bad or, you know, she didn't do this thing. She didn't scream at me because I did something wrong, she just needs space or whatever it is so that they can kind of start to see like, I don't know how they impact each other and what they could do differently next time. It definitely takes a long time for them to internalize that.
Jess: Yeah, I think that's important for parents to know that we often are setting these boundaries over and over again, that it makes sense that we have to do that because our kids' brains are immature and they aren't just necessarily going to catch on the first time. But like you said, narrating out the entire scenario for our kids helps them understand perspective and helps them understand that, oh, my sibling doesn't hate me. They maybe just were struggling to control an impulse. I see that with my girls now because I've narrated this for so long that if one of my kids does hit the other one, the other day she was like, she just really had a hard time controlling her hands, mom, and then she hit me. I was like, okay, look at us. We're getting there. So those small successes. Another thing that along the lines of hitting I think is really important, I talk a lot about on my page too, is boundaries and also recognizing when we need to step in. So I'll often try and step in, like if I see that my toddler is ready to hit her older sister, I'll try and like put my body in between before she ever hits, or I'll just like bring her into a hug or give her some space before she hits and recognize like, you love your sister so much and I know it's really hard to control your hands right now and I know you don't want to hit her. So even though this is hard for you, I'm going to take you out of the situation and I'm just going to give you a little break.
Rachael: Yeah, we have to do the same thing. You mentioned like aggressive love, and we've definitely entered that stage with my girls where the baby is a little more mobile now. She doesn't look like just this little doll that we have to be super gentle with. She's interactive. And since she's become more interactive and more mobile and social, my middle daughter has taken it as a sign that she is ready to like wrestle and ready to, you know, just be in the mix all the time. So she gets this look in her eye and this energy that my husband and I can now spot from a mile away where we're like, she's about to go up and squeeze this baby to death or whack her on the head or kick her in the face or something and it has definitely happened and luckily the baby is very easygoing and she's like a classic third baby where she's just like, oh, I'm fine, I don't care. But yeah, so now we've kind of had to resort to just as much as we can when we see her in that mode with that look in her eye, we just remove her from the area because we can only tell her, no, we stop hitting so many times because it doesn't work. And parents I think are often really frustrated with quote unquote, like gentle parenting advice because they look at it like, oh, this doesn't work. Your child needs to be punished if they're hitting. They need stronger discipline. If they're hitting, it means that they're not listening to you, where none of that is true. It's just where they're at developmentally, right?
Jess: Yeah, and I like to think too, well, if my job is to be a leader of my kids, I'm going to go in before they even do the hitting. And like you said, notice that look in the eye or notice those signs so that I'm not, so my toddler doesn't actually hit her sister. Like if I can do that, because I feel like that is the most loving thing. And I know she doesn't want to hit. And I know even though maybe she acts silly afterwards, like I think underneath those feelings of silliness is maybe some shame or some guilt around hitting her sister.
Rachael: Yeah, or just dysregulation, right? They're just completely out of control in that moment.
Jess: Yeah, she doesn't want to feel that out of control. So I think to let parents know too, because I think another thing people say about gentle parenting is that it's permissive or that, yeah, that the kids take the lead, but actually we do need to be in charge and take the lead. And sometimes that means removing them from a situation and going together somewhere new. And that's okay too.
Rachael: Yeah, because we don't want to set them up to fail, right? We don't want to... Especially if we can see it coming and we can stop it, because of course we can't always, that's not realistic, but if we can see that it's coming, why would we allow it to happen, right? When we can easily step in and help both of them, the baby stays safe and the toddler safe from, like you said, doing something that might make them feel ashamed or more dysregulated. Well, thank you so much. All of this was so, so helpful. And a lot of this is also covered. I've taken your parenting course, the Parenting Little Kids course, and it's so, so helpful in just understanding how their little minds work and one of the pieces we love so much about it too is the curiosity piece and just kind of approaching each situation with our kids instead of going right to like a judgment or feeling like they are bad or we are doing something wrong as parents, just kind of really trying to figure out what is underneath it and what purpose does that behavior serve, right? So that getting curious piece I think is so, so helpful for parents of kids with, of any age really.
Jess: Mm hmm. Getting curious is really the most important thing. I think when we stop just seeing behavior as behavior or hitting us, hitting what we see it as a communication to something going on underneath the surface, I think not only can we actually help resolve that behavior because we're getting to the root of it, but also we have so much more compassion for our kids because we see them as these whole little people trying to communicate and trying to figure out. I always think like for my three year old and like, you've only been on this earth three years, like you don't have the ability to communicate these feelings so I can help you with that. And I think that perspective alone is huge for parents.
Rachael: For sure. And I think when we are able, especially when we're navigating siblings stuff, when we're able to kind of look at each of the kids and see what their perspective must be and what needs they're trying to get met in this dynamic of siblings and of the family unit, it can be just really, really powerful and helpful. So Jess, thank you so much for joining us and talking all about siblings. I loved having this chat with you, especially because we both are moms of three and have had some really similar experiences. Where can people find you and access all of your amazing content?
Jess: Absolutely. I would love if you'd come and join us over on Instagram, Nurtured First. I'm posting on there every day, usually on the stories, some tidbits, some insights, some day in the life stuff. So I would love for you to come join us there. And then if you want more on siblings, parenting related stuff, the getting curious, I would definitely suggest checking out the Parenting Little Kids course. We go into deep detail on all of those topics. And I would love to teach you more in there as well.
Rachael: Amazing. Thank you so much for always keeping it real with us. We really appreciate you!
Jess: Thank you, you too. I appreciate you as well.
