“I Feel Like My Life has Changed and Yours Hasn’t”
Episode 46: “I Feel Like My Life has Changed and Yours Hasn’t” with Erin & Stephen Mitchell @couples.counseling.for.parents
Having kids changes your relationship. If you have ever felt misunderstood, disconnected, exhausted, and resentful towards your partner- you’re not alone- and this episode is for you! Join Rachael and Erin & Stephen Mitchell, husband and wife duo & authors of the new book Too Tired to Fight, as they talk all about relationships, specifically relationships AFTER kids.
Here’s what they discuss inside this episode:
How and why having kids can change your relationship
Erin & Stephen share about their own relationship experience and struggles after kids
The biggest struggles people have right after having a baby and why
How to regulate your own emotions so you can communicate effectively with your partner
Resentment- how to handle it and what to do about it
How to connect when you’re feeling exhausted & disconnected
Does all conflict have to be “bad”? When might it be time for therapy?
Reshaping your frame of what connection is
Sex & intimacy after kids
Will bed sharing ruin your marriage?
The inspo behind their new book- Too Tired To Fight and how they wrote it together
And so much more relationship advice!
Erin and Stephen are the cofounders of Couples Counseling for Parents, a company focused on providing access to research-informed, psychologically sound online education for couples. Both have a clinical education—Stephen, a PhD in medical family therapy, and Erin, a master’s degree in counseling psychology—and they have a combined 23 years of experience providing counseling and education. They have been married for 16 years and have three kids.
Mentioned in this episode:
Too Tired to Fight: PREORDER NOW!
Couples Counseling for Parents: The Podcast
Erin and Stephen’s website for their workshops & membership: https://couplescounselingforparents.com/
Erin’s Instagram: @couples.counseling.for.parents
Listen to the full episode
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Welcome back to No One Told Us, the podcast that tells the truth about parenting and talks about all the stuff you wish you knew before having your kids. I'm your host Rachael and today I'm so excited to speak with the co -founders of Couples Counseling for Parents,
Erin and Steven. They have a company focused on providing access to research -informed, psychologically sound online education for couples, and both have a clinical education,
Steven's a PhD in medical family therapy, and Aaron has a master's in counseling psychology. Together they have a combined 23 years of experience providing counseling and education,
and they've been married themselves for 16 years and have three kids. Their book is about to come out, and I'm so excited to talk about it because the title just really speaks to me personally. It's called too tired to fight. So welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to talk about the book and other stuff too. So welcome. Thanks guys.
Thank you so much. That was a mouthful of an introduction we have. Muscling through that.
You're impressive people. There's a lot to say.
No, we're glad to be here. Yeah, thank you.
So we have been connected for a long time,kind of just through Instagram. So what kind of made you guys want to make the jump from, I mean, you do so much you see like clients, you have a podcast, you do the social media thing, what made you want to make the jump to writing a book?
Ooh, I'll let you, I'll let you answer that one.
Honestly, it's sort of a reverse order. I think all of those, well, we were seeing clients all along.
Yeah. So that actually happened first. But then I really wanted to write a book. I've always wanted to write a book. I think Stephen and I wished we had this book. And the way we felt like to get a book and were advised is to have a platform for people to know what it is we would be writing about and to be interested.And so the book came first in our minds and last in progression.
In the progression, yeah. But I think always the goal too is, Aaron said like it's the book we wish we had had when we had, I mean, we still have kids, but when we used to have kids, no, but I think we just felt like, you know, we should have been really good at being a couple after having kids because we had, you know, all this clinical education, you know, we were supposed to know all this stuff about relationships. And we had such a hard time, kids changed our relationship in such a wonderful, beautiful way, but also in a very stressful way. And we were looking for help, didn't find any help that felt useful. And so that's what we were like, we need to try and provide this for other people. So-- -
Absolutely, yeah. - So this is kinda it. - When you, what you just said is what we actually said in real time, like, we should be better at this. Like, how is that? If this is hard for us, like, this must be hard. Like, this is tough stuff. Yeah.
It really is. And I think people are scared to talk about it. They're scared to admit that they're having a hard time, particularly right after they're having, particularly right after they've had, like, maybe their first baby and things feel so fragile. Because I get, I mean, I am not a relationship expert at all, but I still get so many questions. Every time I do a question box on Instagram, people want to know like, is it normal that things are really hard right now? Like we haven't been intimate. We are at each other's throats. We have all this resentment. Like there are just so many struggles. What do you guys think is kind of like the top struggle or the top issue that you see people facing right after having a baby? Is it all of the above? Is there one thing that stands out?
We might answer this differently. Sure, we will. We answer almost everything differently. So you first. I would first like to add, yes. That's all the relational problems. No. And relational beauty. That's right. There you go.
So thankful for the difference. I think so. I think the overarching thing I would say is like having kids is such a new context for couples. Um, and it doesn't even matter if you've already had kids, if this is your second, you know, kid or third kid, like your context changes so much, it introduces new stress into your life. And I think so often what we're, what we're talking to couples about is just stress management and the capacity to be able to regulate yourself and then to be able to communicate with your partner.
And oftentimes, if your nervous system is stressed, you're going to have stress communication and that's where you're going to have the relationship problem. So it could be about sleep, it could be about a decision for school, it could be a decision about finances, it could be in -laws, it could be anything. And I think couples are oftentimes surprised by that because they're like, well, you know, before we had kids or, you know, I thought we had a routine, we have kids and like, you know, and now we're having another kid, like, why is this still hard? Why is this hard in a new way? And I think that it's just stress and our ability to manage it and to be able to work together and manage it as a couple is what I would say is the biggest thing.
Yes, I actually really like that. I think probably I'm just going to repeat what you said, but in my own way, but I think try to make it sound different. But I do think it's maybe it's just an important nuance to me. But I think similar, like I think the communication, because it can be about anything, if you use some pretty major examples, the ones I was thinking about are like, wow, Steven, that's an awfully long shower you feel entitled to take or yeah, sure, no problem. Definitely eat the pre -cut toddler food I just spent 40 minutes.
Yeah, she's still talking, but I did do that. Like walk by and grab a handful of it- that's right.
Yeah, it's totally on me… but then also like you didn't take pictures of me and or you know like the really Meaningful things that on the surface are silly and quotations But matter because it's like, do you think I'm important? Does my experience matter to you? And all at the same time, I'm trying to learn this new role myself. And so I don't have time to reflect on, this is what I really mean to say to you, Stephen. I'm just like, you selfish, entitled human, how dare you fill in the blank. It almost didn't matter because that was so often my lens, especially, especially- not exclusively in those early years of like, wow, I didn't know I would feel this lonely and that you would feel so, so different from who I thought you were just a few months ago.
I think, I think that that is a different category, but a really important one. That that is a little bit outside of the what I was saying about stress, because I do think there's this challenge that couples have, you know, there's a pregnant partner and a partner that's not and that embodied connection and experience is so otherworldly and and then the non -pregnant partner I think does struggle to connect with, understand, and recognize sort of the depth of that wonderful thing that's happening, but also the challenges, the struggles. And I do think that that loss of translation between birth partner and non -birth partner is another big factor.
I think there's a lot of conversations like Erin was saying that are around that idea of I just don't feel like you're connecting with me in my experience and understand how much my life has changed.
Yeah. I mean, I just was shaking my head that whole time you guys were both talking because it's true. There are all of these, like Erin, I heard you talk a lot about these assumptions that I think a lot of us fall into is like, I'm because you're doing X, Y, Z, or because you're not doing X, Y, Z, that you must not care, that you must not see me, that you must not appreciate me. And I think giving the other part in the benefit of the doubt that they probably don't feel that way, but it really does feel like that, right?
When you're in it, it really does feel like, wow, they really do not give a shit about what I'm going through, because how dare they? How dare they? And I don't know how to get out of that. But that leads to so much resentment. And Marley and I just recorded an episode talking about how much we struggled with this in the earlier parts of our relationship, but it still crops up now. And I don't know that there's an answer to get around the resentment or what do you guys, what do you tell people? How do you avoid it?
For me, that's a two part question. So the first thing is, yes, and this resentment stacks. And I think that this is a really common misconception, like if we can just sort of barrel through these first 18 months will be okay. So like sort of like, whatever it takes, let's just make it. And then things will sort of like magically clear up between us. And while sleep generally does drastically improve and some rhythms and start to click in place, not always, but a lot. This is my, I'm tiptoeing in your world.
No, you're right, yeah.
But the resentment doesn't go away. And if that is the lens that you've been wearing for 18 months,you don't just take it off. It just builds with new things and other things. And there's this like resentment history. And I would like to say, I don't think that there's a problem with that. I don't think that there's something wrong with that. With the fact that there are misses, and that there's a feeling of resentment about that miss. I don't think anyone is trying to be a bad actor. I don't think anybody wakes up and says, "Okay, I'm gonna try to miss my partner's experience so that we can end up resenting each other." Like no one does that.
And on the other side, I'm gonna wake up and put on a lens of expecting your worse.
Yeah. - Right, right. - But it does happen. And Rachael, you said like, well, how do you avoid it?
And I'm like, you know, I don't really know if you can avoid it. I think in, and honestly, much of what we are trying to do as a business, what we're trying to do in the book "Too Tired to Fight" is to help people have a process, to help couples have a process of talking about these kinds of things.
You're gonna run into resentment. But if you know how to talk about it, it's going to be okay. It will be resolved. You will be able to work through it. It won't, it won't stack up. And I think that that's the, I think that that's not how we, a lot of couples think about that kind of thing, just because we're like, we shouldn't feel this way or I don't want to feel this way. Can we just make it go away? And we get very focused on one another to like, well, if you would do this, then it would be better. Or if you would do it.
I think we try really hard to provide some preventative strategies, some proactive communication. But the reality is, people aren't interested. I mean, it's like us too. Let me just be super clear. No, to prevent a problem until it's a problem. Yeah. So it's like, well, that won't happen to us. I mean, I cannot tell you how shocked we were when Stephen says like, like we were shocked. We were shocked like wait a minute, I like you. I think you care, and I still cannot believe the feelings I'm having towards you. But I grabbed our book while you were talking because our first like real chapter and like in the conflicts is that My life has changed and yours hasn't Conflict like…. that's my god.
Yes….. And I and I honestly think that there's some of these things that yes couples could read while they are pregnant or while they are waiting for their baby. But you won’t know until you know and yes there are some conversations you can have like and like every couple isn’t going to have every issue that is in here but I think there is something to learn from each of them. Like okay like well if this does come up or like wait so you've never said to me you feel like my life hasn't changed….. do you feel like that? like probably um so I think hopefully it generates conversation even before conflict but if not like to your point then yeah there's I mean we literally have the conflict to connection equation um because people don't you don't know we didn't know it's gonna feel so lonely in a relationship you even like.
I mean, some couples are lonely before, but Steven and I, like, I liked him.
Yeah. - And then - - I liked you too. - There were a lot of days where I was like, well, do I not like you? Like, you're my person. How are you not feeling like my person? And like, how are you missing? Because I think, and this is the other part of the communication that I do think you were heading on. Like, so often we're trying so hard to express ourselves and like explain this massive profound change and you're missing it. You're looking at your partner and like, I am being clear. You are not listening. Like how are you not listening? And that's what does feel so personal. But I think a lot of times we really aren't communicating that clearly.
We don't, in what world are we having like all of this like, you know, self - Like really, like-- - Oh, hey. Self reflective time like Checking in with myself and I'm now knowing exactly what I think, feel and believe.
No, and well, that's why I think the title of your book is so genius and just like hits the nail on the head and we're gonna talk more about the book when we come back from this break. We'll be right back.
So the title of the book is Too Tired to Fight, which I obviously just love because my own experience and just knowing kind of how it's going for people in my community based on what they tell me,most of us really are just too tired to fight. We are exhausted, working on our relationship feels like the last thing we want to deal with. We don't feel like we have the bandwidth or the time to even have a full conversation.
Like I don't even remember the last time my husband and I were able to say full sentences to each other in front of our kids because they're constantly interrupting us. It just feels, you know, by the time bedtimes over, we're exhausted and don't want to deal. So we just kind of like clock out, watch TV together and that's it. How, first of all, how did you come up with the title of the book and what is kind of the ethos of the book? Too tired to fight.Why did you feel like that was an appropriate name for it?
So I think you captured it. I think there's a level of exhaustion and a level of disconnect that happens when you become a parent, a level of disconnect from yourself, and then also subsequently from your partner, which isn’t purposeful or intentional, it's just situational. like an asterisk to that is like our connection has shifted. I have never been more invested and connected to this little human and I think biologically it's necessary. I want them to be close to me. I want to be close to them and like I think biologically like I've heard somebody say once like I heard my son roll over at two o 'clock in I mean, at two o 'clock in the morning, last night, they're at college seven states away. That will still be me, like so real.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. I do think it's not just like all of a sudden we're like disconnected being.
I think our connection and our attention is very specifically shifted. Yeah. Yeah. You're incorporating some really important humans into your life. Your attention to the matter in a very real life and death kind of way.
But there is sort of that nature. So I think part of the desire was just to kind of voice some camaraderie, some recognition of that just exhausted, tired, disconnected, again, state that takes place necessarily and just because of context. And then I think another thing.
I, you know, we hear couples a lot of times say maybe as a badge of honor, you know, we never, we don't have, we don't fight. We don't, we don't have any, we don't have any conflict. And that's like, supposed to mean that their relationship is strong and things are going great. And yeah, I guess if someone doesn't fight, okay.
But I think we really wanted to reshape the perspective of what conflict and miscommunication and fights between partners can be as not something that's negative,
but as that an opportunity to move towards connection. Because really conflict does not have to be bad. Conflict can be the very thing that you and your partner do together in a way that feels positive, feels curious, feels like you're doing a hard thing together and like you come out of the end of a conflict and you're like, me and you, wow, look, like we did it. Look at what we did. We just, we talked about this really hard thing. I shared some vulnerable things. You shared some vulnerable things and, and like we're together. And I think that if we can think about conflict in that way, if we can think about fights in that way, we won't feel too tired, because it will actually be a moment for us to connect. And so I think that that's, you know, all of what we were hoping to communicate and put into a title like Too Tired to Fight.
I totally agree. I think a lot of times too, especially couples who are stuck in the round and round, like, oh, great, now we get to bring up the thing that we know is not gonna go well,
you're gonna hear me say this, I didn't mean that, I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong, you're gonna tell me why I'm wrong, and it's gonna be worse. Why would couples bring that up? I tell, I mean, we say this to couples all the time, like, well, no wonder you stopped talking about Top stuff that does sound terrible. Who wants to deal? Yeah, I wouldn't do that.
Yeah, but like, you know, like after you leave um, I honestly think this is why social media Continues to be so wildly successful is like when you when you see a post and you are like that is me or like You have a conversation with a friend and it's like they really get it. Like or like you just have that feeling of like I feel seen and known in this moment. I think a lot of couples just start to resign themselves to the fact like, oh, that's not going to be you. Like in this season of life, you're never going to be that person. That's not going to be my partner. And that is draining.
Even just that acknowledgement like, oh, you're never going to get it. I'm not going to be able to share this with you. Like, oh, and that that in and of itself is just a deflating experience and I think the idea is like it can be very energizing to feel seen and known and connected and not Stephen and I will never have the same experience on anything ever.
I think that's true. Yeah, we have very similar lives and our kids are the same children but we experienced them differently all things But we don't have to have the same experience to be able to to reflect one another's experience. Right… be able to share and know and and really feel felt by the other and I think that's like There can be energizing moments even in an otherwise exhausting context.
Yeah. Yeah, and so see Yes, we're all too tired to fight in the old stuck ways that we might be doing that as parenting partners, but we're not too tired to connect. And we really think that that's the dream, right? Like that's what you're, I mean, that's what you want. That's what you're hoping for is to have a relationship and a family that feels connected.
Yeah. And Erin, you brought up something that I really resonate with, which is like your priorities when you have a baby are really just totally shifted. And I've talked about this a lot on social media and I get a fair amount of hate whenever I talk mostly on like TikTok where people don't know me. People really don't like to hear that you're not putting your marriage or your relationship at the very top of your priority list. There's a lot of people that feel and maybe I'm wrong so you guys could tell me. There's a lot of people that feel like you have to put your relationship at the forefront. You have to prioritize date nights. You have to be intimate. You have to, you know, do all these things to make sure that your relationship is the most important thing even above your children or else, you know, it might not last.
And then there's people that are like, no, we're actually, we're making this decision together kind of as a team that we're going to prioritize our kid right now or they're gonna be number one right now and I guess maybe nobody needs to be number one. It doesn't need to be like We don't need to put our partner and our child at odds with each other. But what are your general thoughts about that? Do you feel like it's realistic advice to tell Couples with little kids that they have to nurture their relationships. Is there an easier way to do it that doesn’t require so much time and energy? What can you tell me?
So I think, I mean, that's an important question. That's I think everyone sort of battles with it and everyone feels judged by somebody else's prescription, which so I think it's why it matters intensely. So I think that, and I think we actually might agree on this one, but probably not. Probably. Let's see. We'll see.
When we have this conversation with couples, it doesn't really matter what Steven and I did for our relationship. It matters what you and Marley both can choose together for yours. So I think as long as the couple is aligned, it really, there isn't a one -size -fits -all answer to that question. I can be very honest and say, Steven and I did not prioritize date night. We, although for a little while we had it because my mom could - - Oh, we did, yeah. - If far away, and then that went away.
But it was - - I remember that, back in the day, we used to date.
I don't think, no, I think that it is not helpful to say that every couple should have an hour a day or even an hour a month. I don't know, I think that that's a miss. I think what is a miss though, also is saying, well, I think this and Steven thinks that and we just are never gonna agree. like we have to find a we solution to that. But I do think a lot of times partners feel, and you can weigh in on this, but like they're left out, like it's mom and baby, and a distant 10th place is, you know, it's...
So I think that there's like a lot of things there. I think one idea is, I think for a lot of couples where they, that kind of like, so you gotta prioritize your relationship and do the date night and do all that. I think a lot of times that is couples working out of an old system. And it's the system that they had before they had kids. And I think in one way it's really important to notice that It's really gonna be hard for couples to keep connecting the way they used to connect before they had kids.
And there's a level of learning that couples can engage in. This is, okay, so we have a different context. So like, how could we connect as a couple in this context? So maybe it is, we're all taking a walk together as a family and we're connecting and we're considering that connection as a couple. It could be that we're all making sure that we sit down and we have a meal together at night.
So I think when you get real rigid about the prescription of what that means and your date night and you got to prioritize your relationship, I don't think you have to do that at the exclusion of your kids or of your family. You just have to reshape and reframe your perspective of what connection is within your context. So I think that that's one significant thing. And then...
Well, I was just gonna say sex. You said sex earlier, we allowed to say sex earlier. - I brought it up, yeah, you can totally... - I was like, "Can we say sex?" - But even that, so a lot of times when you were talking about the old context, couples continue to think...
That specifically applies to sex. - Yes, that the way that we're going to have sex is if we go on a date and we have 47 minutes of conversation and then we come home and then all the kids are asleep and the house is clean and has got all the time in the world and what that's now 1115 we're gonna have sex like please I know a lot of couples at this point and that works for almost no one like so like you just have to like even me….. like what was enjoyable as a date before we had kids and what was enjoyable to me after kids…. was massively different.
I used to love going out to dinner. That was like such a fun thing. I really don't enjoy that anymore. It's and that is unfortunate for Stephen because that still feels really connected to him to like sit and talk. But I'm just like, I want to do something like I, it just feels different to me now. And I think a lot of couples feel bad. Like, I don't really look forward to it. And it's anymore. That's okay. What would you love?
Yeah, I don't really like sex at 11. I'm tired and it feels like a chore. Well, when are you energized? Like, when do you have a little more excitement and like have sex then? Like, well, we're working. Take the morning off. Or, you know, like there's, there are some ways that, but if you are trying to stay in an old stock place that feels bad, it's gonna keep feeling bad. And that makes a partner feel horrible. There's nothing worse than me being like, yeah, sure, Steven, we can have Yeah. Great, I guess. Right. I guess. If you need that. If you really want to.
Yeah. I know it's awful. And specifically, we have a chapter in our book called Sex Life, what Sex Life? And we specifically kind of talk about this dynamic of you. You have to reimagine what connection and intimacy look like within that changing context. And I think that's a lot of, So that's a lot of work. That takes a lot of effort to reimagine. That takes some vulnerability to say like, "Hey, what I want, what I need, and what I'm missing."
And what I'm insecure about. Oh my God, that's a whole other thing, yeah.
Yeah, one partner's body has really changed a lot. And like even being able to talk about that in terms of what that might feel like. And I think a lot of times in this conversation to the the non -pregnant partner like doesn't imagine or think about like what it would be like for your body to change and then like your sex life is going to feel different and and that like you like you should like be mindful of that for your partner and like be talk about that like it again it's just you have to shift and you have to adjust to the context. I think part of what you were saying too, Erin, about what one partner feeling left out and, you know, kind of is, you know, yeah, I think that, you know, I get that, but I think one of the things that I would encourage that non -pregnant partner to do is, you know what, do some research on attachment. Do some research on how babies and moms connect, and rather than taking offense to that,
take some wonder at it, be amazed at it, encourage it, foster it. Don't just sit there and be like, "Well, I guess that means I'm not important." No, it means you're absolutely important. That's my favorite Stephen does.
Yeah, and like, that's on you. Don't do that. - No. - Rather, if you wanna be close to your partner and your kid, then be close to them by being interested in what they're interested in.
And you know what they're interested in right now? Is attaching. So get in there and be a part of it as you can. Support your partner. Encourage that attachment. Also, you're attaching to your kid too. So, so understand what that means. And, and that kind of like, I don't know, I don't have a ton of patience for that. Like, well, I feel left out. Oh, my God. It just, you know, like, I can't, like, don't even get me started. I can't on the men that are like competing with their literal baby. Like, I just have zero patience.
And I feel terrible for moms that telling me like, Oh, well, I mean, I hear about it a lot because the baby is maybe in the bed, right? And partner really doesn't like that sometimes, which is a whole another thing. And I could do a whole rant about that. But, you know, it does come up where they're like, When is this baby going to get out of my bed? When am I going to get my, my wife back or my partner back? And I mean, everything that you just said is so helpful.
And I think also part of it is, it's a phase, Like this is not your life forever and people really I think they have a really hard time- I know I did- I had a really hard time seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with my first and then once you're through Your first you're like, oh, okay. This actually doesn't last forever like we will get back to some normalcy, right? Do you guys find that a lot that people just have like a really hard time grasping time?
Oh? Well, yeah, it Yeah. Every day is a million years. And I think that while I think that that is actually very helpful to know, I think it's really only, it only feels better at the end.
Exactly. It's sort of like when someone's grieving, because honestly, that's really what is happening. You are grieving an old life, which doesn't mean you don't love your current one. Yeah. It doesn't. But you are grieving. And so it never helps for someone to be like, it's temporary, this won't last. But it's lasting today. Yeah, great.
So I feel bad today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think time does not exist. You know how people always talk about like, I cannot wait till my toddler understands what five minutes means? It is the same thing for couples. Like, but it doesn't, you can't know what it, what doesn't matter today. W
ell, and I kind of just want to go back to this, to this partner who feels a little left out. Because - I do think that what that is reflective of is that really big sticking point that you're talking about at the beginning, Erin, of misunderstanding the experience for the pregnant partner. So like, there is this amazing connection taking place between a pregnant partner and a like all the like neuroscience and everything is just like it's, it's like magic. It is unbelievable what is taking place. And I think that when that partner is saying, Hey, I feel left out. And in one way,
what they're doing is they're missing the beauty of what's happening, which is missing their partner's experience. And it's judging their partner's experience.
And it's, it's Furthering that gap and that chasm of like you don't get me. You don't understand what this is. You're judging me and telling me that I care more about our kid than you or that I don't want to be intimate with you. Or like you're you're telling me that I'm creating this gap between me and you…. when when really what's happening is That partner is trying to connect in a biological Neurological way that that like Somehow we're set like is set up to have it to happen.
And you're and you're begrudging me that and again It's and I get I take issue with you saying them saying I miss you means that because I think saying I miss you is a profoundly movement towards Statement so I but I but when they're saying like it could be both,
right? I mean, right? But I think there's a way to describe this experience because it is different. I mean, this is literally the point of my life has changed and yours hasn't, which is people need to say what it feels like.
And you need to say, like, I miss you. And like, oh, I miss you too. And that's not a bad thing. That doesn't feel like you are putting me last. I agree with you. We have another chapter in our book called, I'm All Touched Out. And It kind of, it goes kind of hand in hand with the sex life, what sex life, but, but it is separate. It's not that kind of a touched out ideas, not just about sex necessarily, but just affection and being close and, um, being needed, being needed. Yeah. And, and, and I do, I do agree with you that, that partner who is feeling left out. I, I, I get how that happens. I, I get how there's how there's a feeling of, "Oh, I'm not as important as my partner is, what's my role? How do I fit in?"
And I do - Yeah, I know it's not bad selfish thought to have. No, those are not. I think you need to be willing to say those things and then also to be able to be imaginative about how you can be a part of things rather than just kind of sitting there being like, "Well, I'm left out, so I guess I should..." - Go golfing.
Yeah. - Yeah, nobody needs me here anyway. I guess I'll just fuck off for the rest of the day. - Right, right. That kind of thing is what I'm kind of speaking to. I get you, yeah.
You did not ask this question, but talking about bed sharing, co -sleeping, baby in the bed, people ask us all the time too. And people make a ton of assumptions because this is our work, this is our research, this is like our, what we do and talk about, that we have regular date nights that our kids would never be allowed into our bed, that, I don't know. Yeah. But those are the two primary ones.
Probably. - But having a kid in your bed will not ruin your marriage. - Thank you, for saying that. - It just won't. Disagreeing about having a kid in your bed might. That could, yeah. - Thank you. Yes, okay, I to hear more about this we're going to be right back.
Okay so I'm so glad you brought this up Erin because when you guys were talking I wrote this down as a note because I wanted to remember to ask you. So we were talking a little bit about like co -sleeping and bed sharing and having a baby in the bed and you know breastfeeding and all the things that come along with that, right? And how a partner might feel kind of put to the side or like they have different priorities. So you just said something that is so important. Having a baby in your bed will not necessarily ruin your marriage, but disagreeing about it could. How do you navigate that when one partner is like, this is the only way I can get sleep. This is the easiest way for me to breastfeed. I feel really strongly about doing less. And the partner is like, I don't want this baby in my bed anymore. Like, what do you do?
So you can't kind of have a baby in your bed. Totally. Um, and I think there's a lot, I think people get very, this is a stressed conversation. This is a very common conflict. And in stressed conflicts, people get pretty polarized. And all of a sudden, one person's the yes person and one person's the no person. And Really, there are a lot of in -between answers to this and and we forget that we forget that there's Maybe's or sometimes or how and like, okay, this seems really important to you. Why not? Like what, what aren't you liking about this anymore or?
Yeah, in terms of like why there's a partner who doesn't want a kid and bet like okay like how come What's what's the story there? What's the rationale and It's not to not to be like, you know prove your point. Yeah, but more of like obviously there's energy here Yeah, like help help me understand and and I think a lot of times when you ask that question sometimes that partner is just like Well, I don't know it just it just seems like it just seems like we shouldn't be doing it. Like we should they should be sleeping on their own. They should a lot of shoulds, a lot of assumptions, a lot of worrying about the future.
Yes, yes. This is a very common cause of future tripping. Like a lot of couples start future tripping about this kind of stuff. And that should be validated. Their fears should be heard.
Trying to tell someone they're not afraid of something they are afraid of is ridiculous. I mean, we all have toddlers listening to this, right? Like, that doesn't work. It's not kind. So like,
you want to push someone further away, Tell them to stop feeling what they feel….. mutually. -
Okay, good point, good point. - Yeah, because that same partner saying like, we need to get this kid out of the bed and that kind of energy. They're also telling the partner who wants a kid in the bed like why this is, the reason this is important to you, how you feel about this, stop it. You just can't tell each other to stop caring about the things you care about.
Right. So I think we would just help the couple find the "we." And I think that I'm not trying to be particularly elusive here, but it really is nuanced, though. Well, there's stories that inform why we feel certain ways. And so if there's a partner who says, "I don't want a kid in bed with us," there are multiple stories informing that way of thinking, the feelings about that. So it'd be important to know, it'd be important to understand.
And typically they aren't aware of that. I mean, it's like couples are withholding from each other. And it could be as simple as, that's not the way things were done when I was a kid. Okay, all right, like, and why, how did that become so important? Like what about that seems, you know, threatening or upsetting. And I think in the same way, what are the stories informing why someone does want their kid in bed with them? Like, and a lot of times I think for, you know, part of that story is because I want to be connected to my kid in a way that I wasn't. And my understanding of this process is that it helps with that, it supports that. Um, and there's a lot of, you know, other reasons, but it would be–
Just plain. I, if it's easy for you to say, we should have this kid where I have to get out of bed,
potentially 17 times a night over a period of time where our kid was making up 17 times a night, which was super fun. Yeah. Um, but like, so sure. So you're asking me to work harder for you. And I think, especially when that's already the lens that is so easily put in place, it really isn't hard to see why couples are like, you don't care about me.
Again, the lens of you don't get my experience. Yeah, I have to get up 17 times.
As you've seen. And it's hard to hear anything other than those things.
And then we really encourage couples to use their imagination and be creative. That is how you can come to a place of the "we" of the relationship, not just that this is what I want and what I need, but what do we want and what do we need and how can we creatively and intentionally and purposefully try and give each other that?
Yeah, one of the most profoundly helpful things for our marriage happened from our oldest pediatrician, we ended up learning that this kid who was waking up 17 times a night had stomach issues. This is how we learned that though. I didn't know and I wasn't keeping track. He was in our bed and I was just nursing him but I was waking up feeling like I actually didn't sleep last night. It felt like anytime I shut my eyes I opened them.
And Steven, this isn't your proudest moment, but was like I'm sure it's tough like keep going and youI got this mama. Yes, you're doing great. Awesome. Yeah.
Not exactly belittling like I'm making it sound right now. So patronizing but a little bit honestly I'm like, I bet it is hard and I'm here and here's your water and I got breakfast but like I'm trying to say something else. Yeah, I'm trying to say there's a level of difficulty here. You're missing. You’re not getting the severity.
Yeah, and honestly, I mean, the refrain was like, I feel like I'm dying. And I feel like you're saying, keep going. So we're at the pediatrician's office. It's been months at this point. And she, I'm saying this like, I don't really know. And Stephen's like, I just don't think he's waking up that often. I don't think it's a medical concern. And I'm saying, it feels like a problem.
And she looks straight at Stephen and she was like, sounds like you need to be the one tracking how often he's waking up. And I was like-- - I was gonna say, let's give him a little tracker or a pencil or paper.
Absolutely. So he woke up, it was one night he wakes up, he was-- something about it,
isn't you just getting like, yeah, you have to work together.
Do something about it but doing something about it isn’t just doing like- you have to work together.
Yeah. Well, Aaron, I bet you felt so validated by that when he said that. Oh, my goodness. Like, yes, I absolutely did. And I, and I do think that that's the thing. And I think sometimes partners have like a big project to do, like one day in the future. Well, yeah, that, you know, maybe the week before you can sleep in a different room, like, or maybe there are creative ways around this problem. I mean, we put our kid down on her own bed. She does not stay there. But we've done this with our last couple where it's like, we put them down all at, you know, early bedtime. So we have a couple hours together at night. And then whenever she wakes up, she gets to come to the bed because we're unconscious anyway, like, what does it matter? So yeah, I love that there are creative ways to kind of get their needs and rights
That doesn't have to be a yes or a no. And there's so many options like that. Yeah. - And again, it's back to that idea of like these really are like the conversations that can either lead to partners feeling like their relationship is breaking apart or that their relationship is strong and vibrant. And that. And again, this is why the conflict can lead to the connection. Yeah, like you're with me. We got this. We're a team. Like this is creative. Look at us. I cannot tell you how many times we have had to readjust, rearrange, reorganize, and rethink our sleep arrangement with our kids. And guess what? That's still happening.
You know, like in and our kids aren't little, like it's just a never ending. They're so little. They're so, they're mid, mid like, you know. - But like, it's like, it's crazy. But I do think that there's part of it where I mean, I think Erin and I, you know, thankfully, like, I mean, we've had some very hard moments in our relationship, like dark, dark moments, like, you know, are we going to make it kind of moments? But, but I do think for the most part, we walk away from our relationship thinking, man, we can get through anything.
And I think that that's what conflict to connection does and can do. It brings couples to this place of like, man, we can, we can do anything together. Well, it changes the fear of a tough conversation to like, hey, I have something to bring up. I'm nervous. It's vulnerable. I'm not excited. You're not going to like it. But I believe we can have this.
Yeah. - That's huge. - It's huge, right? And it's entirely possible versus like, here we go again.
Yeah, I don't trust-- - I can't even script how this is going to go. - Yeah. - I'm going to say this. You're going to say that. I'm going I'm gonna say this 40 minutes later. We're both gonna be too tired to fight about it anymore. So they'll just be like, all right. Well, great. Yeah, want to watch a show or whatever and yeah, and that's that is- I mean, I used the word deflating before but I mean It does break you down and feel like what is the point?
Why would we keep doing this? Why not just sort of live parallel lives and like we're good enough teammates? You know, like I believe you love our kids. I believe you don't dislike me,
but like we don't need, we don't need more. Yeah, that's it, yeah. I don’t expect to feel seen by you. I could see that pattern happening so easily for people's little kids, yeah.
Yes, right. - And it's understandable too. - For sure. - The fact that that happens doesn't mean there's something wrong with your relationship, doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. And this is back to that point. It means that you are in a stressful context, and we all need to be able to learn new skills in managing and coping with stress and increasing our capacity to deal with it ourselves, but then also to deal with it as a team. Like the fact that people are at this place means you're normal, means you're human. Yeah, means you're doing your best in a way and situation you have never been in before.
Yeah. And, and, and it is, we have to learn new skills. And, and that's okay.
That's such a helpful way to reframe it too is like you're learning, it's almost like you're learning a new job or any other new skill. Like you would never expect to be totally proficient at it at the beginning. So I love that you describe it that way. That's so helpful. And I really cannot wait to read this book. I'm so excited. I'm going to link it in the show notes so that everybody can get the pre- order.
But the last question I have for you guys actually isn't about the book or even about relationships necessarily, but it's something that I try to remember to ask everybody at the end of the episode, which is just what's something that no one told you about parenting or relationships? What's something you wish that you had known before you became parents?
That is a good question. Let me think for a second. I'm going to have sort of the wrong answer. I already know it's the wrong answer, but it's the right one for me. I think I had no idea how different I could feel for my before self, but somehow more myself. I felt like in becoming a mom, like this is so me. I like, it felt like, I felt like more of myself. I felt vibrant. I remember after our oldest was born, like, I am incredible. And I never believed that until this day. And I believe it and no one can shake my confidence in myself as a mom. And I had no reason to know that before.
Yeah, I wish every mom could feel that way. I just got chills when you were talking.
I also all coupled and blended up with I missed that other person too.
Yeah.
And both of those felt intensely true for me day in, day out and that didn't always feel easy or beautiful or simple and it isn't simple but it was and still, or oldest is 12 and a half. 12 and a half years later, that still feels very true for me. We were just talking about like what, like trying to help our kids build some confidence in some areas. And I was like, the most confident I've ever been about anything is in parenting. I just really feel myself. But man, I sure miss that old person sometimes. Like she was great in other ways. But yeah, so that I think, and no one could have told me that. I know, but it's empowering in a way that I had no idea.
Yeah, that's awesome. I know that I knew yeah,
Yeah, I think I think I might so I think what I was told About relationships and about parenting is that they weren't going to be fulfilling. I think I saw like from my family and my parents that their relationship was really bad, really conflicted, really full of conflict, really full of disconnection. And, you know, as a kid, like I saw that, I saw it, you know, throughout my whole life. And I was just like, all I'm seeing is that relationships don't work out, that they're not good.
And then I think also, like from a cultural standpoint, you know, everybody kind of says like, you know, oh, your life ends when you start having kids and your partner becomes a nag and you just loot like you lose yourself and all this kind of stuff. And I, and I remember I always hoped it would be different. Like, like, I was like, that doesn't seem really fulfilling. And I think so that was the message I was told. I think my hope in becoming a parent and becoming a partner was that it could be fulfilling, that it could be joyful, that it could be fun, that it could be like that I would love my kids and want to be with my kids and want to be with my partner and that we would have a feeling of being together and connected and I think that,
gratefully, thankfully, like I do feel that way.
And I think for me, like, so it's not what I was necessarily told and then came to realize it was what I was told and hoped would be different. And I feel like that's what that's what I'm experiencing, you know, now in my life and in my relationship and as a dad. And that's wonderful.
I love that. Thank you so much.
I can't believe we both gave such like bow on a package answers. I expected what it was to be like. Well, it's just a fun, like I really, when I said mine, I was like, I know this is the wrong thing. Cause I don't think I knew that people should take time for themselves or something. You know something.
No, no, you know what's so funny about that question too is every time I ask it, I'm just so curious about what people are going to say. But every single time it has nothing to do with the kids. Like it has absolutely nothing to do with like a parenting tip or a hack or like it's always about our inside and like our own kind of journey as parents. It has nothing to do with our kids, which I just think is so cool and so interesting. I always love chatting with you guys though. Thank you so much. Where can everybody find the book and everything else that you offer?
And we love being here. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This is - It's always so fun to talk with you. - So couplescouncingforparents .com is our website. You can find the link to the book there or on Instagram @couplescouncingforparents.
But the book is also anywhere you order a book. - You can go to Amazon, you can go to Target. - You can pre -order, but it does come on July 9th, depending on when this comes out. Either way, it's available today.
Perfect, yay.
Pre -order order, - Yeah, I am so excited. Thank you guys so much for being here. Have a great rest of your day. - Thanks.
